Title
The Great Depression and the New Deal: Interviews with Mr. William D. Wesselink, Dr. H. A. Pierce, Dr. George F. Reynolds, Mr. Harry W. Schaller, and Dr. Luman W. Sampson by an unknown interviewer. [Pictured (from top) William D. Wesselink, Dr. H. A. "Howard" Pierce, George F. Reynolds, and Luman W. Sampson. Not pictured: Harry W. Schaller]
Subject
Great Depression and the New Deal
Depressions -- 1929 -- Iowa -- Storm Lake
Wesselink, William D.
Pierce, Howard A. (H. A.)
Reynolds, George
Schaller, Harry W.
Sampson, Luman W.
Oral histories -- Iowa -- Storm Lake
Description
An unknown person, believed to be a Buena Vista College professor, interviewed five men: Mr. William Wesselink, BV professor and administrator; Dr. H. A. Pierce, retired local optometrist; Dr. George Reynolds, BV professor; Mr. Harry Schaller, Storm Lake banker; and Dr. Luman Sampson, BV professor and administrator. The interviewer asked these men for their observations about the Great Depression and the New Deal of the 1920s and 1930s.
Creator
Unknown
Publisher
Buena Vista University
Date
undated
Format
audio/mpeg
Language
English
Type
Sound
Identifier
http://bvuarchives.bvu.edu/Audio/OralHistories/WesselinkWilliam.mp3
Interviewer
unknown
Interviewee
Mr. William Wesselink
Dr. H. A. Pierce
Dr. George Reynolds
Mr. Harry Schaller
Dr. Luman Sampson
Location
Storm Lake, Iowa
Transcription
WW=William Wesselink
HAP=H. A. Pierce
GR=George Reynolds
HS=Harry Schaller
LS=Luman Sampson
Interviewer [00:00:00] I'm speaking with Dr. Wesselink, Buena Vista College Vice President for Student Affairs here. Dr. Wesselink, I'd like to get your impression of several questions concerning the New Deal. First of all, to what extent do you believe the Depression of 1929 can be blamed on the economic policies of either Hoover or Roosevelt.
WW: [00:00:29] I was a young man raised in a very staunch Republican home and therefore we were loyal to the Hoover administration. The preparation as I recall, from discussion with my parents, was that Roosevelt probably was raised in an affluent background and was not really aware of the problems that people were experiencing due to the drastic economic conditions of the time. Therefore, my opinion, there is somewhat slanted. I don't think that the president--either Hoover who had lost-- was defeated in the election by Roosevelt--had a great deal of influence on the alleviation of the Depression. They put in New Deals and all kinds of relief programs that seem to be more socialistic in approach, at least that was my impression of the time.
Interviewer [00:01:48] Sir, do you feel that at the time of his nomination for the presidency in 1932, Franklin Roosevelt presented a positive forceful program to deal with the Depression?
WW: [00:02:02] Franklin Roosevelt was a very personable man-- very articulate. People were disgusted with the lack of rolling business in the economy. The prices of agricultural products, prices of manufactured products, were all declining. There wasn't a good market, and so, any change would seem to me at the time, and since. The vote for Roosevelt was a result of reaction rather than a positive program because they had the various plans for improving the economy, and it took a long, long time. If it hadn't been for World War II coming along, probably the Depression would have continued with taking-- through tax funds and through the increased indebtedness, taking what money we had and could raise. And the people that had any money at all, to pay those that didn't have any and were having difficulty keeping bread and butter on the table.
Interviewer [00:03:30] Sir, historians frequently speak of a first New Deal and a second New Deal. Would you discuss the differences between these two New Deals?
WW: [00:03:40] I can't really recall two New Deals because I'm not a historian and haven't reviewed the history, but as I recall they had the Work Projects Administration and the Public Works Administration. We called them WPA and PWA, and they attempted to make work and do construction. And it seems to me, as I retrospect, it appears that when one project didn't-- [if] one attempt at alleviating the Depression didn't work, they attempted another one, frequently without too much concern for the farmers or for minority groups or anything like that. This was a general Depression for everyone. I remember observing in the '30s, in the middle '30s, schools being built with the WPA or PWA, I don't recall, labor, in which most of the labor like pouring cement was done by hand rather than by a machine in order to give more people work. And they built public buildings. They restored parks. They had-- oh, programs for youth, the Conservation-- CCC, I recall, Civilian Conservation Corps, in which unemployed youth would go out and make parks and repair roadways to parks, and they had all kinds of public supported projects that increased the national debt a considerable amount.
Interviewer [00:05:37] Sir, in recent years historians have pointed out that the New Deal did relatively little for under-pri-- underprivileged groups: Negroes, poor sharecroppers in the South. If this was so, how can the overwhelming support that these groups gave Roosevelt in the 1936 election be explained?
WW: [00:05:55] I would think that any person that would be attempting at a recovery and being adequately blessed with-- with a gift of-- attempted explanation of-- of new programs and so on, would be very popular because a person in office in the presidency always has a better chance than a man running for the office. And, of course, it wasn't a particular big plum to be president in those days because of all the grueling problems of fighting a Depression. I believe it was Dewey that ran against Roosevelt, wasn't it? I believe it was Thomas Dewey who, perhaps didn't have a great deal of political stature at the time, as a competitor or the opponent in the election at that time.
Interviewer [00:07:01] Sir, in your opinion, why did the New Deal fail to restore real prosperity?
WW: [00:07:10] If I were more of a student of history, I could answer that more adequately. Just seems to me that you can't consistently over-expend a federal budget, increase debt, because ultimately all that has to be repaid. And the coming of World War II, and the increased requirements of our industry and agricultural [sic] to help the rest of the world, stimulated the economy enough so that eventually we came out of the Depression. But I can't really answer why the programs that were involved with the New Deal didn't do the same thing that national circumstances eventually forced on us.
Interviewer [00:08:09] Was Roosevelt as bad an administrator as his critics have often charged?
WW: [00:08:16] I don't believe Roosevelt was that bad an administrator. Again that's rather a subjective guess on my part. He had some able men with him. He was a very personable, aggressive man. His health probably was a deterring factor in his effectiveness because he was a cripple all of his administration and in bad health most of the time. Other than that, I would hate to discredit Roosevelt as a president because I'm sure that he tried his level best with the staff and the-- that he had around him, his whole cabinet and all of the experts. Personally, I think they were somewhat ill-advised in the approach.
Interviewer [00:09:18] How has the New Deal experience permanently changed American life and American society?
WW: [00:09:27] Seems to me that now we depend altogether too much upon the federal government for the answers to the personal problems, that we're drifting away from competition to stimulate the economy, from the free enterprise system, and we're depending too much upon the federal government to resolve all of our problems rather than individual initiative. And I think this is the result primarily from the experiments that were done in the Depression days of the '30s and early '40s.
Interviewer [00:10:07] Sir, would you discuss some of the action that was taken in the early '30s by Iowa farmers in reaction to the falling farm income as compared to constant taxes and mortgage?
WW: [00:10:19] A farm group, because of the low prices they were paid for their product-- When they were selling corn for 10 cents a bushel, if they could sell it-- and that sort of-- practically no-profit-- they couldn't make a profit at all in farming. And consequently, many of them had to mortgage their farms and they mortgaged them frequently to insurance companies and-- and any agency that they could get money from and then they-- these-- part of the American financial enterprise started foreclosing on these farms. And as a result, I recall, for example, around LeMars, Iowa, they had a group of farmers that got up in arms and one judge ruled that the law-- I believe it was an insurance company foreclosed on a farm that they got to be a rather violent mob without any adequate leadership and seized the judge and threatened to hang him. And the law enforcement agencies had a very sizable problem. I was in that area at the time and I was-- along with many others, very perturbed at the mob action of the farm folk that would take this type of action because-- to protect their-- what they thought were their rights.
Interviewer [00:12:01] Sir, do you recall it-- an active communist movement during this time? And if so, what form did it take?
WW: [00:12:10] I don't really recall any communistic approach. Of course, I was located here in Iowa at the time. This was during the McCarthy era where everything that was labeled negative was blamed on the Communists and, to me, McCarthy made such an issue of the infiltration of communism and stimulated so much agitation that really wasn't founded. I think he was opposed to the socialistic approach and blamed everything of the federal government at the time and blamed everything on infiltration of the Communists without real solid basis for it. [END OF INTERVIEW]
Interviewer [00:13:05] I'm speaking with HAP:. HAP:, sir, at Buena Vista Manor. HAP: was-- is an optometrist and was practicing during 1932 in this area. Sir, would you discuss some of the action that was taken in the early '30s by Iowa farmers in reaction to the falling farm income, constant taxes, and mortgages?
HAP: [00:13:31] Most of the action and reaction were caused by the inflation of the stock market. And farmers, of course, were belligerent because some of them mortgaged their land to buy more land and some of them had just bought the land to mortgage back. And they put up roadblocks, tried to keep the trucks from getting to their destination, and the funny part of it is, most of the roadblocks were put on by people who hadn't hardly seen a farm. Here in Storm Lake, there was -- or Buena Vista County, there was a crowd that got up together and they went down to the legislature which was in session, and the first fellow that went down in the chamber was carrying a rope.
Interviewer [00:14:36] Would you talk about the LeMars thing, sir?
HAP: [00:14:40] This was about the time that the Bradley incident-- Judge Bradley incident up in LeMars, where they were having a mortgage foreclosure sale and the farmers ganged up, and there were some people that were merely agitators. They put a rope around Judge Bradley's neck and tightened it up so his toes just would support him. Various communities had their roadblocks set up against all the main highways coming into the towns. There was very little of that in Storm Lake. But our neighbors--Cherokee to the west--they had one and it took a armed posse that could shoot, to break it up and in the end, the trouble was over.
Interviewer [00:15:59] Sir, at the time of his nomination for the presidency in 1932, do you feel Franklin Roosevelt presented a positive forceful program to deal with the Depression?
HAP: [00:16:10] No. It was unnecessary because the psychological effect of the disadvantages [unintelligible] made it impossible to beat him anyhow.
Interviewer [00:16:23] Sir, would you comment on President Hoover's attempt to deal with the problems of the Depression?
HAP: [00:16:29] Well, Mr. Hoover was a victim of circumstances. When people invest their money and more or less lose it, you get to be quite bitter. And Hoover had a plan set up and-- and-- [pause] I don't know just how I want to say this-- had a plan set up which Congress refused to follow. And they were aided and abetted by the group who supported Al Smith for presidency in '28, and they rented a complete floor in a large office building in Washington after the defeat and started out to smear this over. Staffed it with writers and such like. We had a few other incidents happen in Primghar. Farmers come [sic] in to stop a farm sale, and the sheriff was an old man. He got a posse together, and he got in a stairway of the courthouse with an ax handle that they borrowed from the marshal's in Primghar, and they settled their differences.
Interviewer [00:18:14] Sir, in your opinion why did the New Deal fail to restore real prosperity?
HAP: [00:18:18] The party, the Democratic Party, was taken over by the socialists who called themselves the Democrats. Previous to that, there'd be three or four different presidential candidates on the ticket. One would be for abolishing liquor, and then Eugene V. Debs, who was head of the Communist Party. And they all joined in and went democratic. And, of course they tried to pull the country out of a Depression, but they just got it started. And then in 1936, which was really the worst Depression, all because the '32, '29(?) deal had sapped all the resources of various men in business, and they had nothing to go on. And there was a chief adviser-- was an Iowa man. His slogan was we'll spend and spend and spend your money 'til you don't have any more money for us to spend.
Interviewer [00:19:43] Was there an active Communist movement at this time during the Depression? If so what form did it take?
HAP: [00:19:51] Well, it not only was an actual communistic movement in the country and the result of their efforts are just-- some of them are just becoming apparent at this time. And of course-- [interview ends abruptly]
Interviewer [00:20:10] I'm speaking with GR: of Buena Vista College. Sir, to what extent can the Depression be blamed on the economic policies of presidents of the 1920s?
GR: [00:20:23] I presume you're talking about the Depression-- begins about 1928 and that runs for a ten- or twelve-year period of time. I think that the Depression was due in part to a world situation and a problem of world economy, that some of the failures came first in Europe before it came to the United States. And that the problem in the United States wasn't simply a problem of the policy of the government or the position of the president's or the position of Hoover in the presidency. So that it was-- it was due to conditions in the United-- of course there had been a great deal of over-speculation in the United States. And I think that the over-speculation there ultimately brought the Depression because everything rather fell apart. But when it was realized that they couldn't simply go on gaining and that-- and that there must-- and that it must fail.
Interviewer [00:22:18] Sir, would you comment on President Hoover's attempts to deal with the problems of the Depression?
GR: [00:22:27] There were programs in regard to agriculture in the time of Hoover that made it-- made an attempt to improve the position of agriculture-- even 1928. And I was going to say 1929. 1929, Nineteen-hundred-and-thirty [1930]. Of course it was true that Hoover believed in free enterprise and perhaps something of a laissez-faire position of the government but never-- Nevertheless there were certain laws passed that would affect the economic situation. It isn't just the same as though a person might simply promote a program or have a program of their own. But I believe that even in the time of Hoover there was-- there was some attempt there to handle the economic problem, particularly so far as agriculture was concerned. I think more than-- more than maybe industry was concerned.
Interviewer [00:24:19] Sir, at the time of his nomination for the presidency in 1932, do you feel Franklin Roosevelt presented a positive forceful program to deal with the Depression?
GR: [00:24:32] I think that Roosevelt recognized that something had to be done. Just what particular laws would come into effect would be determined at-- at a later time. I mean, after the time of his election, he had had the close advisers in the government. Who was it--Benjamin Cohen and Thomas Corcoran--yet, in particular, that formed a brain trust. There were-- there were others also. Ickes was to play an important part. Ickes had been a supporter of Teddy Roosevelt in the election of Nineteen hundred and twelve [1912] then-- and then played an important part with Franklin Roosevelt in 1932 and following and-- but they-- the program-- you became more aware of the program after the time of the election, rather than simply a specific program during the time of the election. I think that-- the-- the brain trust group, that was the particular group that was advising Roosevelt, put their own ideas into legislation and put their own-- and to a considerable extent, put into form the laws that were to be made. Most of the laws perhaps came from the executive-- out of the executive branch. And that particular group around Roosevelt.
Interviewer [00:26:50] Sir, historians-- historians frequently speak of a first New Deal and a second New Deal. Would you discuss the differences between these two New Deals?
GR: [00:27:03] It might-- it might be that I haven't paid too much attention to what was the first New Deal.and what was the second New Deal. I think that in regard to the first New Deal, shortly after Roosevelt became president, you would have the Works Progress Administration. You'd have the public works. They're designed to improve the economy. You'd have the regulation of the Securities Exchange-- the Securities Exchange Act. You would have the banking holiday that took the United States off of the gold standard and-- I was going to say Social Security-- wasn't suggested-- promoted until after 1934. It was in the-- in '34 or-- or after that-- that you came to have something more like Social Security. I-- I-- I've always thought that the New Deal laws did attempt to go to the economic problem that you-- that you had.
GR: [00:28:53] It meant that the government would spend money. Now, if I remember rightly, the cost of government might be about five billion dollars before the time of Roosevelt in the time of the New Deal. I was thinking the cost of government was about 30 billion dollars, and you had-- you had more or less a plateau of 30 billion dollars. I presume that the-- the debt [pause] at the government is somewhat in proportion to the gross national product. Then, as now, or perhaps I should say, now as then. I think the difficulty now might be if you fell off on the gross national product, and then you would be in trouble.
Interviewer [00:30:18] Sir, in recent years, historians have pointed out that the New Deal did relatively little for underprivileged groups: Negroes, poor sharecroppers in the South. If this were so, how can the overwhelming support that these groups gave Roosevelt in the 1936 election be explained?
GR: [00:30:38] Well, I think that in the New Deal you came to have an idea that the federal government should do more and that the federal government should have a greater control. Prior to that time, it was left to the states, and I think that the conditions that you talk about were conditions where states had failed to act. So that out of the philosophy of the New Deal, there would come a period of time when those particular groups would be aided. I think that perhaps the first effect of the New Deal would come in the industrial area and that later-- later effects would come in the agricultural area. The National Labor Relations Board the-- or the Wagner Act was to come at least prior to the second Agricultural Adjustment Act. Now the first Agricultural Adjustment Act had been held unconstitutional, and as I recall, then, the effectiveness in industry came before the time of effectiveness in agriculture. Let's see, was there more to the question?
Interviewer [00:32:31] No sir, that was pretty much it. In your opinion, sir, why did the New Deal fail to restore real prosperity?
GR: [00:32:49] I-- I don't believe that the New Deal was a failure in that respect. Actually, I think that you came to have a better condition in industry out of the labor relations. You came to have a better agricultural base out of the Agricultural Adjustment Act. I think that-- I think that there was a constant growth of the gross national product. The gross national product under Hoover was very low. It could have been 30 billion dollars. And the cost of government was about 5 billion, maybe, at that time. And so, that there was-- there was a constant growth of economy. Now, some persons have said, "Well, it took the Second World War to really bring-- to improve the economy," but I think that the economy was on-- working up before the time of the Second World War and-- and that the effect of it wasn't simply dependent on the Second World War.
Interviewer [00:34:49] Why was Roosevelt as-- was Roosevelt as bad an administrator as his critics have often charged?
GR: [00:35:02] I think that Roosevelt provided a great deal of leadership. I think that he provided a great many principles. I think that he indicated the direction in which the country should go. The question asks about his administration, that is, and acts of administration-- implying a question of personal control over the bureaucracy. Well I-- I-- I think that perhaps he exercised that, but [slight pause] it depends on what you mean by administration there. I-- I think that the program itself was act-- was actually effective. The unemployment was to go down before the time of the Second World War considerably, and I don't know that-- maybe that question isn't answered.
Interviewer [00:36:51] Sir, how has the New Deal experience permanently changed American life and American society?
GR: [00:36:59] Well, I think that you had an idea that the government should do more for the people, that you increase the government services, and when you increase the government services, it was necessary to increase the size of the government. And government was bound to become more costly if you did that-- did that. There might be certain conditions that couldn't remedy itself just without the action of government. You sometimes say you had the coming of the welfare state. I think that it's better to have a Works Progress Administration than it is simply welfare. I think that the laws should be examined as to whether or not they simply encourage an extension of welfare. I don't think that they should encourage an extension of welfare. I think that there should be some difference between what a person might have out of welfare and what he could make working. That is, that when he does work, why, he'd receive a great deal more than what he could on welfare. Now, there might be those that believe that they should get almost as much on-- on welfare as what they could working. I've always doubted that that should be the pr-- they could have enough to get along on-- on, perhaps, minimum standards rather than maybe any luxury standards. Maybe that's the difference between the Republicans and Democrats. I don't know [laughs].
Interviewer [00:39:16] Sir, would you discuss some of the actions that was-- that was-- were taken in the early '30s by Iowa farmers in reaction to the falling farm income as opposed to constant taxes and mortgages?
GR: [00:39:29] You'd had the Mortgage Moratorium Act which would, well, protect city owners and protect farm owners, too, persons that would protect their property. But I think that you'd have a very small income. Now, in reality, I bought seven pork chops for 21 cents. I paid a dime for a dozen eggs. Maybe I paid less-- maybe I paid less than that. Talking about students. I went to a restaurant practically every night down at Iowa City and bought a small steak for 35 cents. Well, I had that 35 cents. In those days of the Depression, if you had a dollar you could get along pretty good. Now, maybe people talked about 10 cents a bushel for corn, the farmer would have very little. The farmer might-- couldn't pay off his debts. I took-- I went on a trip to Fort Dodge and south of Fort Dodge and went through a farmer's blockade where they were stopping milk deliveries and pouring off milk. Now, if I remember rightly, they had some attack on a judge at LeMars. You've probably come across that. I-- I don't-- I don't know but-- but that other-- other one I went to myself.
GR: [00:41:47] So, I think that it was-- would be very hard to redeem land. Now, you'll recall that after the Mortgage Moratorium Act, I think, the state of Iowa passed the law in '33 that would permit the moratorium or that would encourage the moratorium. They passed the law in '35 that would continue the moratorium. They passed the law in '37, but the law that was passed in '37, I believe, was held unconstitutional by the Iowa Supreme Court because your economic conditions were improving, and so that they should then begin to make payments on their homes. I think there was then some improvement after '37, which was at a time prior to the United States being into the Second World War.
Interviewer [00:43:15] Sir, was there are an active communist movement at this time? If so, what form did it take?
GR: [00:43:26] You mean in '32 and after '32. You'd had the-- you'd had the Communist scare from 1920 or 1918, near the end of the First World War. You'd had the organization of the IWW [Industrial Workers of the World] back there at that period of time. Sacco and Vanzetti case might have begun. I forget the date. It might be about 1920. I think it concluded in 1927, and they were-- they were executed. But I-- I don't-- I believe that the Communist movement had somewhat died down after 1927 or by Nineteen hundred and twenty-seven, that it was not as serious right at the time of the Depression or the New Deal, as it had been in the earlier period of time. Now there was the point of view that the New Deal movement would discourage Communism and that-- that social welfare would provide some alternative to Communism. I think that the National Labor Relations Board Act encouraged free labor unions. I think that the free labor unions were rather strongly anti-communist and actually now strongly anti-communist. It might be different in other countries than in the United States, but I don't believe that the circumstances of the Depression brought any strong Communist movement. [END OF INTERVIEW]
Interviewer [00:46:11] I'm speaking with Mr. HS: chairman, sir, of Citizens National Bank of Storm Lake. Sir, to what extent can the Depression be blamed on the economic policies of the presidents of the 1920s?
HS: [00:46:26] I don't have a good recollection of the economic policies of the presidents in the 1920s. And I can't—therefore, can't answer this question very well.
Interviewer [00:46:34] Sir, could you comment on President Hoover's attempts to deal with the problems of the Depression?
HS: [00:46:42] Yes, I think Hoover was well aware of the Depression that came on during his term, and he met with every every implement at his hands. He unfortunately had lost credibility with the public and he was dealing with the adverse Congress and was unable to get the cooperation that he needed at that time. It's impossible to say whether he would have been able to turn it around if he had received the proper cooperation. But it was quite obvious that this had a bearing on the outcome of his administration.
Interviewer [00:47:27] Sir at the time of his nomination for the presidency in 1932. Do you feel Franklin Roosevelt presented a positive forceful program to deal with the problems of the Depression?
HS: [00:47:40] Yes, Franklin Roosevelt had a very powerful personality, and people were looking for anyone who would be a leader for them. And Roosevelt gave them that hope. I'm not in entire agreement with the policies of Roosevelt, but he did turn the Depression around.
Interviewer [00:48:04] Sir, in recent years, historians have pointed out that the New Deal did relatively little for underprivileged groups: Negroes, the poor sharecroppers in the South. If this was so, how can the overwhelming support that these groups gave Roosevelt in 1936 be explained?
HS: [00:48:22] I can't explain it.
Interviewer [00:48:25] Sir, in your opinion, why did the New Deal fail to restore real prosperity?
HS: [00:48:33] The main tool used by the New Deal was the devaluation of the currency, and this was simply an inflationary method and caught up with us eventually. It did not meet head-on the real problem of the Depression.
Interviewer [00:48:54] Sir, was Roosevelt as bad an administrator in your opinion as many of his critics have often charged?
HS: [00:49:00] No, I don't think he was as bad as he was charged, but I don't think he was as good as he's given credit for by many people.
Interviewer [00:49:09] How has the New Deal experience permanently changed American life and American society?
HS: [00:49:16] It has changed the economics of the country to this extent: people have grown accustomed to inflation and expect continuing inflation and have received continuing inflation ever since the 1930s. This has become a way of life for the United States people, and it doesn't seem that anyone is going to be able to stop this trend. It can be slowed by some administrations at the present time, and in recent years, we have pretty well let inflation get out of hand, and this is apparent in the rapid increase in values. For example, people who are buying homes today, if they're in the 21 to 35 year-bracket, don't realize that there is such a thing as living in a house and taking less for it than they purchased it for. All they, or all their experience has been, [is] that anyone who has bought a home, lived in a good community, and sold it in five years, and sold for more than it costs.
Interviewer [00:50:38] Would you discuss some of the actions that was-- that were taken in the early '30s by Iowa farmers in reaction to the falling farm income as opposed to constant taxes and mortgages?
HS: [00:50:51] Yes, I-- we saw sales stop. We saw protest groups charging the courthouse to stop tax sales. And I think, in general, where-- where the activity was controlled, it was good because it slowed down a panic situation which we had. Now, any farmer or any creditor who stayed with a farmer through the Depression came out of it in pretty-- in much better shape after the Depression was over, after two or three years, after the depth of the Depression than he would have been if he'd gone in and closed out his debtor. And, so, I believe that on balance, the protests of the farmers against foreclosures was a good thing for both the creditor and debtor.
Interviewer [00:51:57] Sir, was there any sort of active Communist movement during this time? And, if so, what form did it take?
HS: [00:52:04] We didn't see anything of that nature in this area. [END OF INTERVIEW]
Interviewer [00:52:10] I am speaking with LS: of Storm Lake, Iowa. Sir, to what extent can the Depression be blamed on the economic policies of the presidents of the 1920s?
LS: [00:52:24] I'd say that not a great deal depends upon the president. It's Congress, you know, and in the case of the Great Depression, there was a world war ahead of it, which caused most of the trouble.
Interviewer [00:52:50] Sir, would you comment on President Hoover's attempts to deal with the problems of the Depression?
LS: [00:52:55] Yes. I'm happy to answer that question because I have believed that one of the major causes of the bank holiday and the closing of practically all of the banks was directly due to Roosevelt's refusal to cooperate with Herbert Hoover. Mr. Hoover, after the election and before the inauguration, tried to get cooperation with Mr. Roosevelt to prevent this. And Roosevelt refused. In other words, I think he wanted all the honor himself.
Interviewer [00:53:50] Sir, at the time of his nomination for the presidency in 1932, do you feel Franklin Roosevelt presented a positive forceful program to deal with the Depression?
LS: [00:54:01] Yes. He presented such a program. I am not saying that I feel that it was the correct one, but he presented it [positively]. Well, let's call it what it--
Interviewer [00:54:13] Sir, in recent years historians have pointed out that the New Deal did relatively little for underprivileged groups: Negroes, the poor sharecroppers in the South. If this was so, how can the overwhelming support that these groups gave Roosevelt in the 1936 election be explained?
LS: [00:54:30] That would be difficult to explain. I don't recall clearly just what his attitude was toward these so-called deprived groups. I do know that his talk was, "jobs for everybody." Wish you had--
Interviewer [00:54:55] Sir, in your opinion why did the New Deal fail to restore real prosperity?
LS: [00:55:11] It was because they didn't understand. They were experimenting. They had never faced up against quite that sort of thing before.
Interviewer [00:55:26] Was Roosevelt as bad an administrator as his critics have often charged?
LS: [00:55:36] Probably not. He was a shrewd politician. He had a natural tack for getting the goodwill of people. "My friends," and there was a story that goes with that. He and one of the other members of the situation were all fishing and they weren't catching anything and he's-- a fellow said, "Let's go home." "Oh," Franklin said, "let's try this." And he leaned over, "My friends" and a thousand suckers stuck up their heads.
Interviewer [00:56:25] Sir, how has the New Deal experience permanently changed American life and American society?
LS: [00:56:34] Well, first of all, we did away with the dependence upon gold in our currency. That began the downfall of our support of our paper money by gold and subsequently later, by silver. Until now, we have simply printing press money. In this other-- the other point, that was the beginning of creating a willingness to be pauperized on the part of millions of Americans so that, now, when anything goes wrong, they say, "let's have the government do something for us."
Interviewer [00:57:34] Would you discuss some of the action that was taken in the early '30s by Iowa farmers in reaction to the falling farm income as compared to constant taxes and mortgages?
LS: [00:57:50] Well, let me think about-- you see you're back quite a ways, now, in the field that I-- would have to do some thinking. That was a matter of the foreclosure of mortgages.
Interviewer [00:58:04] Yes, sir.
LS: [00:58:07] Yeah. Yes. There was a great deal of that, and part of it was rather illogical. How-- how would you how would you expect a bank to deal with a situation or an insurance company to deal with it? They have a mortgage on a man's farm. He doesn't pay the interest. He doesn't-- can't or doesn't pay any of it. What can you do but foreclose? You are dealing with other people's money that's entrusted to you as a banker. You have to foreclose. Oh, yes, Mr. Edson was the attorney here who went to LeMars at the time that they pulled the judge off the bench and threatened to lynch the attorneys. Now aside from from that, let me tell you some personal experience.
LS: [00:59:14] My mother had a mortgage on a farm. We had sold the home farm, and I'd gone back to Upper Iowa to go to college, and mother had her money invested in a farm mortgage. All right, in the midst of the winter, I was called up. Mother was ill. They-- people who had bought the farm-- had bought the farm, presumably now, given a mortgage. Came and said, "Now, we don't want it. We just give it up." Hadn't paid the taxes, hadn't paid the interests, and we said, "We don't want the farm back." We'd do anything we can to make it possible for you to go ahead and work out of this situation. But they refused to do that. Then what did they do? They cut down what trees there were available for wood and hauled them away to their new location. They took the rope out of the barn and the hay fork out of the barn, the roosts out of the hen house, and the shelves out of the kitchen. [interview ends abruptly]
HAP=H. A. Pierce
GR=George Reynolds
HS=Harry Schaller
LS=Luman Sampson
Interviewer [00:00:00] I'm speaking with Dr. Wesselink, Buena Vista College Vice President for Student Affairs here. Dr. Wesselink, I'd like to get your impression of several questions concerning the New Deal. First of all, to what extent do you believe the Depression of 1929 can be blamed on the economic policies of either Hoover or Roosevelt.
WW: [00:00:29] I was a young man raised in a very staunch Republican home and therefore we were loyal to the Hoover administration. The preparation as I recall, from discussion with my parents, was that Roosevelt probably was raised in an affluent background and was not really aware of the problems that people were experiencing due to the drastic economic conditions of the time. Therefore, my opinion, there is somewhat slanted. I don't think that the president--either Hoover who had lost-- was defeated in the election by Roosevelt--had a great deal of influence on the alleviation of the Depression. They put in New Deals and all kinds of relief programs that seem to be more socialistic in approach, at least that was my impression of the time.
Interviewer [00:01:48] Sir, do you feel that at the time of his nomination for the presidency in 1932, Franklin Roosevelt presented a positive forceful program to deal with the Depression?
WW: [00:02:02] Franklin Roosevelt was a very personable man-- very articulate. People were disgusted with the lack of rolling business in the economy. The prices of agricultural products, prices of manufactured products, were all declining. There wasn't a good market, and so, any change would seem to me at the time, and since. The vote for Roosevelt was a result of reaction rather than a positive program because they had the various plans for improving the economy, and it took a long, long time. If it hadn't been for World War II coming along, probably the Depression would have continued with taking-- through tax funds and through the increased indebtedness, taking what money we had and could raise. And the people that had any money at all, to pay those that didn't have any and were having difficulty keeping bread and butter on the table.
Interviewer [00:03:30] Sir, historians frequently speak of a first New Deal and a second New Deal. Would you discuss the differences between these two New Deals?
WW: [00:03:40] I can't really recall two New Deals because I'm not a historian and haven't reviewed the history, but as I recall they had the Work Projects Administration and the Public Works Administration. We called them WPA and PWA, and they attempted to make work and do construction. And it seems to me, as I retrospect, it appears that when one project didn't-- [if] one attempt at alleviating the Depression didn't work, they attempted another one, frequently without too much concern for the farmers or for minority groups or anything like that. This was a general Depression for everyone. I remember observing in the '30s, in the middle '30s, schools being built with the WPA or PWA, I don't recall, labor, in which most of the labor like pouring cement was done by hand rather than by a machine in order to give more people work. And they built public buildings. They restored parks. They had-- oh, programs for youth, the Conservation-- CCC, I recall, Civilian Conservation Corps, in which unemployed youth would go out and make parks and repair roadways to parks, and they had all kinds of public supported projects that increased the national debt a considerable amount.
Interviewer [00:05:37] Sir, in recent years historians have pointed out that the New Deal did relatively little for under-pri-- underprivileged groups: Negroes, poor sharecroppers in the South. If this was so, how can the overwhelming support that these groups gave Roosevelt in the 1936 election be explained?
WW: [00:05:55] I would think that any person that would be attempting at a recovery and being adequately blessed with-- with a gift of-- attempted explanation of-- of new programs and so on, would be very popular because a person in office in the presidency always has a better chance than a man running for the office. And, of course, it wasn't a particular big plum to be president in those days because of all the grueling problems of fighting a Depression. I believe it was Dewey that ran against Roosevelt, wasn't it? I believe it was Thomas Dewey who, perhaps didn't have a great deal of political stature at the time, as a competitor or the opponent in the election at that time.
Interviewer [00:07:01] Sir, in your opinion, why did the New Deal fail to restore real prosperity?
WW: [00:07:10] If I were more of a student of history, I could answer that more adequately. Just seems to me that you can't consistently over-expend a federal budget, increase debt, because ultimately all that has to be repaid. And the coming of World War II, and the increased requirements of our industry and agricultural [sic] to help the rest of the world, stimulated the economy enough so that eventually we came out of the Depression. But I can't really answer why the programs that were involved with the New Deal didn't do the same thing that national circumstances eventually forced on us.
Interviewer [00:08:09] Was Roosevelt as bad an administrator as his critics have often charged?
WW: [00:08:16] I don't believe Roosevelt was that bad an administrator. Again that's rather a subjective guess on my part. He had some able men with him. He was a very personable, aggressive man. His health probably was a deterring factor in his effectiveness because he was a cripple all of his administration and in bad health most of the time. Other than that, I would hate to discredit Roosevelt as a president because I'm sure that he tried his level best with the staff and the-- that he had around him, his whole cabinet and all of the experts. Personally, I think they were somewhat ill-advised in the approach.
Interviewer [00:09:18] How has the New Deal experience permanently changed American life and American society?
WW: [00:09:27] Seems to me that now we depend altogether too much upon the federal government for the answers to the personal problems, that we're drifting away from competition to stimulate the economy, from the free enterprise system, and we're depending too much upon the federal government to resolve all of our problems rather than individual initiative. And I think this is the result primarily from the experiments that were done in the Depression days of the '30s and early '40s.
Interviewer [00:10:07] Sir, would you discuss some of the action that was taken in the early '30s by Iowa farmers in reaction to the falling farm income as compared to constant taxes and mortgage?
WW: [00:10:19] A farm group, because of the low prices they were paid for their product-- When they were selling corn for 10 cents a bushel, if they could sell it-- and that sort of-- practically no-profit-- they couldn't make a profit at all in farming. And consequently, many of them had to mortgage their farms and they mortgaged them frequently to insurance companies and-- and any agency that they could get money from and then they-- these-- part of the American financial enterprise started foreclosing on these farms. And as a result, I recall, for example, around LeMars, Iowa, they had a group of farmers that got up in arms and one judge ruled that the law-- I believe it was an insurance company foreclosed on a farm that they got to be a rather violent mob without any adequate leadership and seized the judge and threatened to hang him. And the law enforcement agencies had a very sizable problem. I was in that area at the time and I was-- along with many others, very perturbed at the mob action of the farm folk that would take this type of action because-- to protect their-- what they thought were their rights.
Interviewer [00:12:01] Sir, do you recall it-- an active communist movement during this time? And if so, what form did it take?
WW: [00:12:10] I don't really recall any communistic approach. Of course, I was located here in Iowa at the time. This was during the McCarthy era where everything that was labeled negative was blamed on the Communists and, to me, McCarthy made such an issue of the infiltration of communism and stimulated so much agitation that really wasn't founded. I think he was opposed to the socialistic approach and blamed everything of the federal government at the time and blamed everything on infiltration of the Communists without real solid basis for it. [END OF INTERVIEW]
Interviewer [00:13:05] I'm speaking with HAP:. HAP:, sir, at Buena Vista Manor. HAP: was-- is an optometrist and was practicing during 1932 in this area. Sir, would you discuss some of the action that was taken in the early '30s by Iowa farmers in reaction to the falling farm income, constant taxes, and mortgages?
HAP: [00:13:31] Most of the action and reaction were caused by the inflation of the stock market. And farmers, of course, were belligerent because some of them mortgaged their land to buy more land and some of them had just bought the land to mortgage back. And they put up roadblocks, tried to keep the trucks from getting to their destination, and the funny part of it is, most of the roadblocks were put on by people who hadn't hardly seen a farm. Here in Storm Lake, there was -- or Buena Vista County, there was a crowd that got up together and they went down to the legislature which was in session, and the first fellow that went down in the chamber was carrying a rope.
Interviewer [00:14:36] Would you talk about the LeMars thing, sir?
HAP: [00:14:40] This was about the time that the Bradley incident-- Judge Bradley incident up in LeMars, where they were having a mortgage foreclosure sale and the farmers ganged up, and there were some people that were merely agitators. They put a rope around Judge Bradley's neck and tightened it up so his toes just would support him. Various communities had their roadblocks set up against all the main highways coming into the towns. There was very little of that in Storm Lake. But our neighbors--Cherokee to the west--they had one and it took a armed posse that could shoot, to break it up and in the end, the trouble was over.
Interviewer [00:15:59] Sir, at the time of his nomination for the presidency in 1932, do you feel Franklin Roosevelt presented a positive forceful program to deal with the Depression?
HAP: [00:16:10] No. It was unnecessary because the psychological effect of the disadvantages [unintelligible] made it impossible to beat him anyhow.
Interviewer [00:16:23] Sir, would you comment on President Hoover's attempt to deal with the problems of the Depression?
HAP: [00:16:29] Well, Mr. Hoover was a victim of circumstances. When people invest their money and more or less lose it, you get to be quite bitter. And Hoover had a plan set up and-- and-- [pause] I don't know just how I want to say this-- had a plan set up which Congress refused to follow. And they were aided and abetted by the group who supported Al Smith for presidency in '28, and they rented a complete floor in a large office building in Washington after the defeat and started out to smear this over. Staffed it with writers and such like. We had a few other incidents happen in Primghar. Farmers come [sic] in to stop a farm sale, and the sheriff was an old man. He got a posse together, and he got in a stairway of the courthouse with an ax handle that they borrowed from the marshal's in Primghar, and they settled their differences.
Interviewer [00:18:14] Sir, in your opinion why did the New Deal fail to restore real prosperity?
HAP: [00:18:18] The party, the Democratic Party, was taken over by the socialists who called themselves the Democrats. Previous to that, there'd be three or four different presidential candidates on the ticket. One would be for abolishing liquor, and then Eugene V. Debs, who was head of the Communist Party. And they all joined in and went democratic. And, of course they tried to pull the country out of a Depression, but they just got it started. And then in 1936, which was really the worst Depression, all because the '32, '29(?) deal had sapped all the resources of various men in business, and they had nothing to go on. And there was a chief adviser-- was an Iowa man. His slogan was we'll spend and spend and spend your money 'til you don't have any more money for us to spend.
Interviewer [00:19:43] Was there an active Communist movement at this time during the Depression? If so what form did it take?
HAP: [00:19:51] Well, it not only was an actual communistic movement in the country and the result of their efforts are just-- some of them are just becoming apparent at this time. And of course-- [interview ends abruptly]
Interviewer [00:20:10] I'm speaking with GR: of Buena Vista College. Sir, to what extent can the Depression be blamed on the economic policies of presidents of the 1920s?
GR: [00:20:23] I presume you're talking about the Depression-- begins about 1928 and that runs for a ten- or twelve-year period of time. I think that the Depression was due in part to a world situation and a problem of world economy, that some of the failures came first in Europe before it came to the United States. And that the problem in the United States wasn't simply a problem of the policy of the government or the position of the president's or the position of Hoover in the presidency. So that it was-- it was due to conditions in the United-- of course there had been a great deal of over-speculation in the United States. And I think that the over-speculation there ultimately brought the Depression because everything rather fell apart. But when it was realized that they couldn't simply go on gaining and that-- and that there must-- and that it must fail.
Interviewer [00:22:18] Sir, would you comment on President Hoover's attempts to deal with the problems of the Depression?
GR: [00:22:27] There were programs in regard to agriculture in the time of Hoover that made it-- made an attempt to improve the position of agriculture-- even 1928. And I was going to say 1929. 1929, Nineteen-hundred-and-thirty [1930]. Of course it was true that Hoover believed in free enterprise and perhaps something of a laissez-faire position of the government but never-- Nevertheless there were certain laws passed that would affect the economic situation. It isn't just the same as though a person might simply promote a program or have a program of their own. But I believe that even in the time of Hoover there was-- there was some attempt there to handle the economic problem, particularly so far as agriculture was concerned. I think more than-- more than maybe industry was concerned.
Interviewer [00:24:19] Sir, at the time of his nomination for the presidency in 1932, do you feel Franklin Roosevelt presented a positive forceful program to deal with the Depression?
GR: [00:24:32] I think that Roosevelt recognized that something had to be done. Just what particular laws would come into effect would be determined at-- at a later time. I mean, after the time of his election, he had had the close advisers in the government. Who was it--Benjamin Cohen and Thomas Corcoran--yet, in particular, that formed a brain trust. There were-- there were others also. Ickes was to play an important part. Ickes had been a supporter of Teddy Roosevelt in the election of Nineteen hundred and twelve [1912] then-- and then played an important part with Franklin Roosevelt in 1932 and following and-- but they-- the program-- you became more aware of the program after the time of the election, rather than simply a specific program during the time of the election. I think that-- the-- the brain trust group, that was the particular group that was advising Roosevelt, put their own ideas into legislation and put their own-- and to a considerable extent, put into form the laws that were to be made. Most of the laws perhaps came from the executive-- out of the executive branch. And that particular group around Roosevelt.
Interviewer [00:26:50] Sir, historians-- historians frequently speak of a first New Deal and a second New Deal. Would you discuss the differences between these two New Deals?
GR: [00:27:03] It might-- it might be that I haven't paid too much attention to what was the first New Deal.and what was the second New Deal. I think that in regard to the first New Deal, shortly after Roosevelt became president, you would have the Works Progress Administration. You'd have the public works. They're designed to improve the economy. You'd have the regulation of the Securities Exchange-- the Securities Exchange Act. You would have the banking holiday that took the United States off of the gold standard and-- I was going to say Social Security-- wasn't suggested-- promoted until after 1934. It was in the-- in '34 or-- or after that-- that you came to have something more like Social Security. I-- I-- I've always thought that the New Deal laws did attempt to go to the economic problem that you-- that you had.
GR: [00:28:53] It meant that the government would spend money. Now, if I remember rightly, the cost of government might be about five billion dollars before the time of Roosevelt in the time of the New Deal. I was thinking the cost of government was about 30 billion dollars, and you had-- you had more or less a plateau of 30 billion dollars. I presume that the-- the debt [pause] at the government is somewhat in proportion to the gross national product. Then, as now, or perhaps I should say, now as then. I think the difficulty now might be if you fell off on the gross national product, and then you would be in trouble.
Interviewer [00:30:18] Sir, in recent years, historians have pointed out that the New Deal did relatively little for underprivileged groups: Negroes, poor sharecroppers in the South. If this were so, how can the overwhelming support that these groups gave Roosevelt in the 1936 election be explained?
GR: [00:30:38] Well, I think that in the New Deal you came to have an idea that the federal government should do more and that the federal government should have a greater control. Prior to that time, it was left to the states, and I think that the conditions that you talk about were conditions where states had failed to act. So that out of the philosophy of the New Deal, there would come a period of time when those particular groups would be aided. I think that perhaps the first effect of the New Deal would come in the industrial area and that later-- later effects would come in the agricultural area. The National Labor Relations Board the-- or the Wagner Act was to come at least prior to the second Agricultural Adjustment Act. Now the first Agricultural Adjustment Act had been held unconstitutional, and as I recall, then, the effectiveness in industry came before the time of effectiveness in agriculture. Let's see, was there more to the question?
Interviewer [00:32:31] No sir, that was pretty much it. In your opinion, sir, why did the New Deal fail to restore real prosperity?
GR: [00:32:49] I-- I don't believe that the New Deal was a failure in that respect. Actually, I think that you came to have a better condition in industry out of the labor relations. You came to have a better agricultural base out of the Agricultural Adjustment Act. I think that-- I think that there was a constant growth of the gross national product. The gross national product under Hoover was very low. It could have been 30 billion dollars. And the cost of government was about 5 billion, maybe, at that time. And so, that there was-- there was a constant growth of economy. Now, some persons have said, "Well, it took the Second World War to really bring-- to improve the economy," but I think that the economy was on-- working up before the time of the Second World War and-- and that the effect of it wasn't simply dependent on the Second World War.
Interviewer [00:34:49] Why was Roosevelt as-- was Roosevelt as bad an administrator as his critics have often charged?
GR: [00:35:02] I think that Roosevelt provided a great deal of leadership. I think that he provided a great many principles. I think that he indicated the direction in which the country should go. The question asks about his administration, that is, and acts of administration-- implying a question of personal control over the bureaucracy. Well I-- I-- I think that perhaps he exercised that, but [slight pause] it depends on what you mean by administration there. I-- I think that the program itself was act-- was actually effective. The unemployment was to go down before the time of the Second World War considerably, and I don't know that-- maybe that question isn't answered.
Interviewer [00:36:51] Sir, how has the New Deal experience permanently changed American life and American society?
GR: [00:36:59] Well, I think that you had an idea that the government should do more for the people, that you increase the government services, and when you increase the government services, it was necessary to increase the size of the government. And government was bound to become more costly if you did that-- did that. There might be certain conditions that couldn't remedy itself just without the action of government. You sometimes say you had the coming of the welfare state. I think that it's better to have a Works Progress Administration than it is simply welfare. I think that the laws should be examined as to whether or not they simply encourage an extension of welfare. I don't think that they should encourage an extension of welfare. I think that there should be some difference between what a person might have out of welfare and what he could make working. That is, that when he does work, why, he'd receive a great deal more than what he could on welfare. Now, there might be those that believe that they should get almost as much on-- on welfare as what they could working. I've always doubted that that should be the pr-- they could have enough to get along on-- on, perhaps, minimum standards rather than maybe any luxury standards. Maybe that's the difference between the Republicans and Democrats. I don't know [laughs].
Interviewer [00:39:16] Sir, would you discuss some of the actions that was-- that was-- were taken in the early '30s by Iowa farmers in reaction to the falling farm income as opposed to constant taxes and mortgages?
GR: [00:39:29] You'd had the Mortgage Moratorium Act which would, well, protect city owners and protect farm owners, too, persons that would protect their property. But I think that you'd have a very small income. Now, in reality, I bought seven pork chops for 21 cents. I paid a dime for a dozen eggs. Maybe I paid less-- maybe I paid less than that. Talking about students. I went to a restaurant practically every night down at Iowa City and bought a small steak for 35 cents. Well, I had that 35 cents. In those days of the Depression, if you had a dollar you could get along pretty good. Now, maybe people talked about 10 cents a bushel for corn, the farmer would have very little. The farmer might-- couldn't pay off his debts. I took-- I went on a trip to Fort Dodge and south of Fort Dodge and went through a farmer's blockade where they were stopping milk deliveries and pouring off milk. Now, if I remember rightly, they had some attack on a judge at LeMars. You've probably come across that. I-- I don't-- I don't know but-- but that other-- other one I went to myself.
GR: [00:41:47] So, I think that it was-- would be very hard to redeem land. Now, you'll recall that after the Mortgage Moratorium Act, I think, the state of Iowa passed the law in '33 that would permit the moratorium or that would encourage the moratorium. They passed the law in '35 that would continue the moratorium. They passed the law in '37, but the law that was passed in '37, I believe, was held unconstitutional by the Iowa Supreme Court because your economic conditions were improving, and so that they should then begin to make payments on their homes. I think there was then some improvement after '37, which was at a time prior to the United States being into the Second World War.
Interviewer [00:43:15] Sir, was there are an active communist movement at this time? If so, what form did it take?
GR: [00:43:26] You mean in '32 and after '32. You'd had the-- you'd had the Communist scare from 1920 or 1918, near the end of the First World War. You'd had the organization of the IWW [Industrial Workers of the World] back there at that period of time. Sacco and Vanzetti case might have begun. I forget the date. It might be about 1920. I think it concluded in 1927, and they were-- they were executed. But I-- I don't-- I believe that the Communist movement had somewhat died down after 1927 or by Nineteen hundred and twenty-seven, that it was not as serious right at the time of the Depression or the New Deal, as it had been in the earlier period of time. Now there was the point of view that the New Deal movement would discourage Communism and that-- that social welfare would provide some alternative to Communism. I think that the National Labor Relations Board Act encouraged free labor unions. I think that the free labor unions were rather strongly anti-communist and actually now strongly anti-communist. It might be different in other countries than in the United States, but I don't believe that the circumstances of the Depression brought any strong Communist movement. [END OF INTERVIEW]
Interviewer [00:46:11] I'm speaking with Mr. HS: chairman, sir, of Citizens National Bank of Storm Lake. Sir, to what extent can the Depression be blamed on the economic policies of the presidents of the 1920s?
HS: [00:46:26] I don't have a good recollection of the economic policies of the presidents in the 1920s. And I can't—therefore, can't answer this question very well.
Interviewer [00:46:34] Sir, could you comment on President Hoover's attempts to deal with the problems of the Depression?
HS: [00:46:42] Yes, I think Hoover was well aware of the Depression that came on during his term, and he met with every every implement at his hands. He unfortunately had lost credibility with the public and he was dealing with the adverse Congress and was unable to get the cooperation that he needed at that time. It's impossible to say whether he would have been able to turn it around if he had received the proper cooperation. But it was quite obvious that this had a bearing on the outcome of his administration.
Interviewer [00:47:27] Sir at the time of his nomination for the presidency in 1932. Do you feel Franklin Roosevelt presented a positive forceful program to deal with the problems of the Depression?
HS: [00:47:40] Yes, Franklin Roosevelt had a very powerful personality, and people were looking for anyone who would be a leader for them. And Roosevelt gave them that hope. I'm not in entire agreement with the policies of Roosevelt, but he did turn the Depression around.
Interviewer [00:48:04] Sir, in recent years, historians have pointed out that the New Deal did relatively little for underprivileged groups: Negroes, the poor sharecroppers in the South. If this was so, how can the overwhelming support that these groups gave Roosevelt in 1936 be explained?
HS: [00:48:22] I can't explain it.
Interviewer [00:48:25] Sir, in your opinion, why did the New Deal fail to restore real prosperity?
HS: [00:48:33] The main tool used by the New Deal was the devaluation of the currency, and this was simply an inflationary method and caught up with us eventually. It did not meet head-on the real problem of the Depression.
Interviewer [00:48:54] Sir, was Roosevelt as bad an administrator in your opinion as many of his critics have often charged?
HS: [00:49:00] No, I don't think he was as bad as he was charged, but I don't think he was as good as he's given credit for by many people.
Interviewer [00:49:09] How has the New Deal experience permanently changed American life and American society?
HS: [00:49:16] It has changed the economics of the country to this extent: people have grown accustomed to inflation and expect continuing inflation and have received continuing inflation ever since the 1930s. This has become a way of life for the United States people, and it doesn't seem that anyone is going to be able to stop this trend. It can be slowed by some administrations at the present time, and in recent years, we have pretty well let inflation get out of hand, and this is apparent in the rapid increase in values. For example, people who are buying homes today, if they're in the 21 to 35 year-bracket, don't realize that there is such a thing as living in a house and taking less for it than they purchased it for. All they, or all their experience has been, [is] that anyone who has bought a home, lived in a good community, and sold it in five years, and sold for more than it costs.
Interviewer [00:50:38] Would you discuss some of the actions that was-- that were taken in the early '30s by Iowa farmers in reaction to the falling farm income as opposed to constant taxes and mortgages?
HS: [00:50:51] Yes, I-- we saw sales stop. We saw protest groups charging the courthouse to stop tax sales. And I think, in general, where-- where the activity was controlled, it was good because it slowed down a panic situation which we had. Now, any farmer or any creditor who stayed with a farmer through the Depression came out of it in pretty-- in much better shape after the Depression was over, after two or three years, after the depth of the Depression than he would have been if he'd gone in and closed out his debtor. And, so, I believe that on balance, the protests of the farmers against foreclosures was a good thing for both the creditor and debtor.
Interviewer [00:51:57] Sir, was there any sort of active Communist movement during this time? And, if so, what form did it take?
HS: [00:52:04] We didn't see anything of that nature in this area. [END OF INTERVIEW]
Interviewer [00:52:10] I am speaking with LS: of Storm Lake, Iowa. Sir, to what extent can the Depression be blamed on the economic policies of the presidents of the 1920s?
LS: [00:52:24] I'd say that not a great deal depends upon the president. It's Congress, you know, and in the case of the Great Depression, there was a world war ahead of it, which caused most of the trouble.
Interviewer [00:52:50] Sir, would you comment on President Hoover's attempts to deal with the problems of the Depression?
LS: [00:52:55] Yes. I'm happy to answer that question because I have believed that one of the major causes of the bank holiday and the closing of practically all of the banks was directly due to Roosevelt's refusal to cooperate with Herbert Hoover. Mr. Hoover, after the election and before the inauguration, tried to get cooperation with Mr. Roosevelt to prevent this. And Roosevelt refused. In other words, I think he wanted all the honor himself.
Interviewer [00:53:50] Sir, at the time of his nomination for the presidency in 1932, do you feel Franklin Roosevelt presented a positive forceful program to deal with the Depression?
LS: [00:54:01] Yes. He presented such a program. I am not saying that I feel that it was the correct one, but he presented it [positively]. Well, let's call it what it--
Interviewer [00:54:13] Sir, in recent years historians have pointed out that the New Deal did relatively little for underprivileged groups: Negroes, the poor sharecroppers in the South. If this was so, how can the overwhelming support that these groups gave Roosevelt in the 1936 election be explained?
LS: [00:54:30] That would be difficult to explain. I don't recall clearly just what his attitude was toward these so-called deprived groups. I do know that his talk was, "jobs for everybody." Wish you had--
Interviewer [00:54:55] Sir, in your opinion why did the New Deal fail to restore real prosperity?
LS: [00:55:11] It was because they didn't understand. They were experimenting. They had never faced up against quite that sort of thing before.
Interviewer [00:55:26] Was Roosevelt as bad an administrator as his critics have often charged?
LS: [00:55:36] Probably not. He was a shrewd politician. He had a natural tack for getting the goodwill of people. "My friends," and there was a story that goes with that. He and one of the other members of the situation were all fishing and they weren't catching anything and he's-- a fellow said, "Let's go home." "Oh," Franklin said, "let's try this." And he leaned over, "My friends" and a thousand suckers stuck up their heads.
Interviewer [00:56:25] Sir, how has the New Deal experience permanently changed American life and American society?
LS: [00:56:34] Well, first of all, we did away with the dependence upon gold in our currency. That began the downfall of our support of our paper money by gold and subsequently later, by silver. Until now, we have simply printing press money. In this other-- the other point, that was the beginning of creating a willingness to be pauperized on the part of millions of Americans so that, now, when anything goes wrong, they say, "let's have the government do something for us."
Interviewer [00:57:34] Would you discuss some of the action that was taken in the early '30s by Iowa farmers in reaction to the falling farm income as compared to constant taxes and mortgages?
LS: [00:57:50] Well, let me think about-- you see you're back quite a ways, now, in the field that I-- would have to do some thinking. That was a matter of the foreclosure of mortgages.
Interviewer [00:58:04] Yes, sir.
LS: [00:58:07] Yeah. Yes. There was a great deal of that, and part of it was rather illogical. How-- how would you how would you expect a bank to deal with a situation or an insurance company to deal with it? They have a mortgage on a man's farm. He doesn't pay the interest. He doesn't-- can't or doesn't pay any of it. What can you do but foreclose? You are dealing with other people's money that's entrusted to you as a banker. You have to foreclose. Oh, yes, Mr. Edson was the attorney here who went to LeMars at the time that they pulled the judge off the bench and threatened to lynch the attorneys. Now aside from from that, let me tell you some personal experience.
LS: [00:59:14] My mother had a mortgage on a farm. We had sold the home farm, and I'd gone back to Upper Iowa to go to college, and mother had her money invested in a farm mortgage. All right, in the midst of the winter, I was called up. Mother was ill. They-- people who had bought the farm-- had bought the farm, presumably now, given a mortgage. Came and said, "Now, we don't want it. We just give it up." Hadn't paid the taxes, hadn't paid the interests, and we said, "We don't want the farm back." We'd do anything we can to make it possible for you to go ahead and work out of this situation. But they refused to do that. Then what did they do? They cut down what trees there were available for wood and hauled them away to their new location. They took the rope out of the barn and the hay fork out of the barn, the roosts out of the hen house, and the shelves out of the kitchen. [interview ends abruptly]
Original Format
audio cassette
Duration
01:00:37
Bit Rate/Frequency
80 kbps