Title
"Lester and Edith Williams interview (Buena Vista College administrator), conducted by William Cumberland"
Subject
"Buena Vista College -- Oral histories"
Williams, Lester E.
Williams, Edith
Oral histories -- Iowa -- Storm Lake
Publisher
Buena Vista University
Date
7-Jul-89
Format
audio/mpeg
Language
English
Type
Sound
Identifier
http://bvuarchives.bvu.edu/Audio/OralHistories/LesAndEdithWilliams.mp3
Interviewer
"William H. "Bill" Cumberland"
Interviewee
Lester and Edith Williams
Transcription
WC=William Cumberland
LW=Lester Williams
EW=Edith Williams
WC: [00:00:02] This is an interview that I'm conducting with Dr. LW: and EW: on July 7 1989, pertaining to the history of Buena Vista College. There are a number of questions that I-- that I have. And the first question. Would you care to compare the Fisher and the Halverson and the Briscoe administrations or these three men and some of the qualities which they've had as president of Buena Vista College.
LW: [00:00:51] Well, these three regimes are different from each other naturally because the regime carries the imprint of an individual and each individual operates in a different way. I think the Fisher years were marked, of course, by the beginning of what came to be a major building program that lasted over several years at the college. This came about accidentally because of the fire that destroyed Old Main in the fall shortly after school opened, shortly after the college opened in the fall of '56, wasn't it?
WC: [00:01:39] Right, right.
[00:01:40] [All talking at once] September of '56.
LW: [00:01:40] That's right. Edith and I were that night at a PTA meeting of the local public schools, and we heard the sirens and so on, and when we came out from the meeting there, we looked to the west and saw the sky all aglow with obviously a major fire and we-- my first suggestion was that's over at the college. And so we headed there, got over there and stood across the street. Old Main was ablaze by that time, and we watched the building go up in flames and saw beautiful pianos that had been in the music department, up on the second floor, crashing through the floors down below. I saw my office all ablaze and realized that I was about to lose a few hundred books in the process and there was kind of a sickening feeling. And that night, those of us who were part of the administration, stayed all-- up all night making plans for meeting places of classes and how we could handle the situation. I may say that the students-- the entire student body that night acted just nobly. They-- fortunately, in a sense, the fire started at the top of the building and worked its way down, which meant that the fire progressed somewhat slower than if it had started at the bottom and gone up.
LW: [00:03:19] This gave the students a chance, through a kind of a chain line that they formed, of getting out all of the college records from the business office. There was not a student record, not a student file that was lost in that fire. So that the student records from which transcripts could be made were intact and this was due to the-- to the quick action of the student body itself and we all commended the students for that. We assembled, those of us in the administration, assembled out on the lawn for a while and talked over what we should do. We went into one of the other buildings, and we struggled all night long, making plans for classes and, as a matter of fact, we never lost an hour of classroom activity. Because the next day, we were able, through the generosity of the churches of the community that offered their facilities and by shifting things around on campus, we were able to carry on the regular class schedules beginning the very next day. It was an unusual night.
LW: [00:04:34] Well, that started a building program that went on for, well, almost down to the present time. But the beginning of that and the push for that was under the Fisher administration. Dr. Fisher that night was at a-- an educational meeting way up at the Lakes. And when he heard about it-- someone called up and informed him what was happening, he immediately felt, as the rest of us did, a little heartsick about it, but he rushed down and took control and from that time on directed the raising of funds for-- immediately to replace old Main. And then other buildings as well. New dormitories and so on. So, that-- I would say that-- that beginning of the building program marked the-- the chief activity in a sense of the Fisher regime.
LW: [00:05:39] Now, by the time Halverson came along, he became involved-- became involved, of course, in the continuation of a concern for-- for the physical expansion of the college. We were beginning just then to grow in numbers in enrollment. When I came to the college in the fall of '54, the total student enrollment was just a little over 300 students. We were a small institution. But a very dedicated one through all of-- all of those years. The next-- the next plan was to expand the-- the student population on campus and during those years, we reached out to make the student body a little more cosmopolitan. We had been a very provincial college early on. We served primarily the students from Buena Vista County and the-- and the nearby surrounding area. The vast majority of our students came from the small towns and small high schools of northwest Iowa. But we didn't reach out much beyond that.
LW: [00:07:09] But during the Halverson years we were trying to reach out, and we began to attract, by the use of people who represented the college, we began to attract students from the Chicago area and also from the East Coast. We had students from New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, places like that because the eastern colleges were being pushed pretty hard on enrollments, and they were becoming overpopulated, and the students were not being accepted. And so they were looking elsewhere, and we had a chance to pick up some students, and many of them were very fine students that came from those areas. We maintained a representative in Chicago who visited the schools for that area. And on the East Coast, in and around New York.
LW: [00:08:08] And I would think that at least part of the Halverson regime was-- was marked by this kind of emphasis. We even reached out for foreign students almost for the first time and attracted from-- some students from Africa and from the Middle East, from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and those places, who found us or written up in various catalogs or were available to them in the American embassies over there in their countries. And so we began to build a more cosmopolitan kind of student population, which I think was good for our local students to come in contact with these students from other parts of the United States and of the world. Good for them to come to a part of America that was not as well known perhaps as places like New York and Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston. That was-- that was largely the-- done through the Halverson years.
LW: [00:09:21] Now Dr. Briscoe came then, following Dr. Halverson, and the whole thrust of the college took a different tack with a different direction. Again, the building program continued the generosity of people who saw some value in contributing to the growth of the college materially. And there was a change of direction more toward the business-oriented kind of program. Through all three of these regimes, the college has gone from what was basically a liberal arts emphasis to a more business-oriented kind of emphasis. Apparently going along with the times, where young people were more desirous of getting into the corporation world and so we were-- the college is trying to meet that need. I may say that that was not unique to Buena Vista College. I think colleges generally, and in more modern times in the last 25, 30 years, have tended more and more to-- to phase out certain liberal arts emphases on campuses and go more and more to-- to a business and communications and journalistic type of program. I think that, to me, marks the sort of the distinctive aspects of these three.
WC: [00:11:23] Well, what do you think would have happened if Buena Vista had not followed that route but it had remained true to the liberal arts concept of the founding fathers?
LW: [00:11:34] Well, I'm afraid, to be realistic about it, I'm afraid that the college would have had pretty hard going. College to me-- a college, it should be kind of an idealistic sort of place, and I'm a product of a-- of a strong liberal arts undergraduate school in Pennsylvania. And in those days, the college I attended was recognized as a good liberal arts institution that prepared people to go into graduate schools where they would put emphasis on a more professional goal that they were tending toward.
[00:12:21] But meanwhile we were convinced, and the professions were convinced, that a solid liberal arts education was necessary to achieve success in the professional field, whether it was education or law or medicine or theology or whatever. One-- one was expected to prepare one's mind through the undergraduate years to come to grips with-- with the proper ways of making judgments with the development of a total man in terms of preparation for life, not only vocationally but even avocationally. So that he's prepared to enjoy life while at the same time is trained somewhat-- trained his mind to-- to reach proper judgments in life. And then the preparation for one's vocation came more at the graduate level. I think this has changed a great deal, to my own sorrow, that the liberal arts are being more and more neglected, neglected, as being non-essential to life success. And I feel that this is a great mistake. I still believe that the-- that the education of the mind in the broadest sense of the word is-- is pretty important because the higher you get, even in the corporation world, the more you're called upon to make pretty solid judgments, and if your mind hasn't been trained to look at all of the options and possibilities and weigh them ethically, morally, and all the rest, there's something very lacking in life.
WC: [00:14:34] Iy was really the gift that changed the college. Without the gift, Briscoe could not really have taken the college down the road that he did, at least not to that extent.
LW: [00:14:46] Well, I think that's true. That certainly hastened this transition from-- from the days when, of course, the college had been established on the foundation as many, many small colleges, particularly those under church sponsorship were established, to give the kind of preparation I'm talking about. The stretching of the mind the-- the-- the understanding of the nature of life and of the world and all of its complications and inter-relationships and interactions to a more vocationally-oriented-- at the undergraduate level, vocationally-oriented program, which leaves out these more basic kinds of courses that stretch-- stretch the mind and enable one to-- to read and understand and-- and come to grips with the-- with the deeper and more basic aspects of human existence.
WC: [00:15:52] I think you'd agree with me that the church relationship has changed dramatically under the Briscoe administration as well.
LW: [00:16:00] Well, yes, but it had started even earlier. The church, of course, in the largest sense, found itself not able to-- to underwrite with dollars and cents, the programs of the colleges that they sponsored. All of the major mainline denominations supported colleges. Many colleges. The Methodists have a great many colleges under their aegis. The Presbyterians have a great many colleges, there are Episcopalian colleges and United Church of Christ colleges and so on. And the church was in the college business. Well, through the years, when they started that, they wanted to see to it that those who were going to occupy positions of leadership in the denominations should have a thorough grounding in the liberal arts before they went on for a theological-- theological emphasis and preparation and-- But this is gone now and-- and the church found itself in a position where it could not support, in a monetary way, the colleges that they had started and had supported earlier on. And so the church, because of that, lost a good deal of influence in the college. It was just sort of a lip service kind of relationship. Yes, we're a Presbyterian related-college, but when you come through the actual-- what that actually means, you see, and it means practically nothing in terms of a dollars-and-cents support.
WC: [00:17:52] But it doesn't have a governmental control of any kind anymore, either, does it? I mean, at one time--
LW: [00:17:59] No.
WC: [00:17:59] They could be members of-- The members of the board of trustees had to be approved by the Synod.
LW: [00:18:04] That's true.
WC: [00:18:04] Is that still true or--
LW: [00:18:07] If it is, now I can't speak for-- immediately for the present time, because I've been away from it long enough now that I don't know if it is true. It's nothing more, as it was in my day, and nothing more than submitting a list of people that we wanted for trustees and it was rubber stamped by the authorities at synod level. What could they do? They had no-- no way of really controlling the institution. They were just kind of a kind of a moral [crosstalk] relationship.
WC: [00:18:40] They had an awful lot of clout during the Olson administration because--
LW: [00:18:45] They did.
WC: [00:18:46] Wasn't the synod that really brought about Olson's resignation?
LW: [00:18:50] Yes, this is true. The synod plus the national offices. The denomination had a national office of higher education through which all the concerns of the colleges under the Presbyterian aegis were-- were dealt with and handled. And they did have a good deal of control because of a kind of a fixed relationship, where the approval of the General Assembly, the highest body of the church, had to be sought each year. And they inquired. We had to fill out forms and make reports to the Synod and to the national body on what we were doing and whether we were growing or not and what our problems were and so on. So, there was a good deal of control from the-- from the division of higher education of the national body of the Presbyterian church. Well, that is all gone. The people who-- who were in charge of that who were very able educators in their own right as well as church leaders, they're all gone now and-- and the whole relationship has deteriorated until it's nothing more than a-- I say, kind of a lip service.
WC: [00:20:16] So the church really lost interest in the college as well maybe the college losing interest in the church. It worked both ways. [crosstalk]
LW: [00:20:23] Yes. You see there was-- there was [sic] the days when church-related colleges were expected to have compulsory chapel, for exam-- this was a symbol, a sign of a church relationship. Well, the time came, of course, when-- when that all changed and it was-- you can't put your finger on any one thing that brought that about. It was just that the turbulence of the times, the revolt of the students in all of the colleges and universities, church-related and otherwise, but a general revolt and students reaching out and making demands and saying, "We-- we no longer need this we don't want to. We're not going to put up with it." And colleges, to save their own existence, had to make compromises along the way. And I don't know of any college now-- there may be a few a very strict fundamentalist type institutions where you can get by with a compulsory chapel service, but you can't in the average church-related college.
WC: [00:21:29] Would you call it independent, now, for all prac--
LW: [00:21:32] I think, for all practical purposes we are an independent institution, yes.
WC: [00:21:35] And we--
LW: [00:21:36] Small private independent. Self-control through the board of trustees. Yeah.
WC: [00:21:44] This is an evolutionary process, but we can see it most clearly during the Briscoe administration.
LW: [00:21:49] Well I think-- I think it's come to its-- its ultimate-- [crosstalk]
WC: [00:21:55] I think he-- I was sitting in a centennial meeting and somebody passed out a sheet and the date of 1976 that was on there and I tried to pin people down on that, and I really don't get a satisfactory [laughter] answer. [unintelligible] there was some sudden demarcation line here. But the church decided they-- they really didn't have this control anymore, ya know.
LW: [00:22:28] Well now, you see there was a time through most of the history of our church-related colleges, the president of the institution had to be a member of the denomination that-- that-- that controlled or attempted to control--
WC: [00:22:41] Was that part of Olson's trouble?
LW: [00:22:45] I'm not sure that it was. I think-- I don't know too many of the details of the Olson administration but Olson, from what I hear, he brought the college through an extremely difficult time. Money was very tight and-- and Doctor Olson went out, as I'm told by those who were with the institution in those days, and literally begged nickels and dimes from people to keep the institution open. There was a time when members of the faculty were paid with sacks of potatoes and-- it was that bad. It was-- it was the economy of the times that I think defeated Olson and he-- he gave noble service in keeping the institution alive but to do, that the methods of doing it, of course, were very uncertain and inadequate. There was no solid planning and so the finances of the college got to-- into a very-- very uncertain and unsatisfactory condition. Because there was no solid economic planning for the institution, and you lived a hand-to-mouth existence. But then along came, as I say, the-- the action under the fire shortly after Olson left, and the new regime came in, which changed everything.
WC: [00:24:18] Was Fisher a good administrator?
LW: [00:24:20] Fisher was a good administrator. He-- he came out of a-- of a background-- He was a public school teacher for a while. His field was science. Then he taught at Coe College, I believe, before he came to Buena Vista. [Mrs. Williams speaks in the background, but it is unintelligible.] And he took things in stride and he-- he gave leadership, and he was forceful without being dictatorial. And I think he gave very good leadership and began to look at long-range planning for an institution, again forced by the action of the fire and the necessity to plan for the future of the college. See, the people that night-- people locally felt this was the end of the college. It's burned down. This is the end of the college. Old Main was our principal building and-- and people just assumed that the phoenix would not rise from the ashes that night. But through the spirit that Fisher brought to the institution and his determination to see that the-- that the college did not fail because of that experience. He gave very forceful and forthright leadership in a very difficult time.
WC: [00:25:49] Did the downtown respond well to the Fisher administration, do you feel?
LW: [00:25:54] I think, on the whole, they did. Dr. Fisher was-- was a man who could-- who could get along with people and compromise at points where a compromise was-- was needed and practical. And I think,on the whole, he got along quite well with the-- with his board of trustees. 'Course the time came when he felt he should move on to other things, and he became president up at Jamestown College in North Dakota.
WC: [00:26:29] I wonder if he felt that was a mistake. [laughter]
LW: [00:26:32] Well, like all college-- all small colleges in the Midwest, Jamestown was having those problems too, and-- but he stayed there a number of years and, in those days, the average tenure for the president of a small college was not more than six or seven years anyway. He stayed-- what, eight, about eight or ten something like that. I've forgotten the exact number, but something like that. And he felt it was time to move on. And there were problems. There were-- Boards of Trustees are difficult to get along with, at best. And when you get some strong characters on the board who-- who face each other with their own preconceived notions of what education ought to be, you sometimes have problems.
WC: [00:27:27] Do you think Fisher was having problems when he left here, with the board?
LW: [00:27:31] Yes. Oh yes, I-- I think there's no question about that. He was having problems. Mostly it was a matter of personalities and-- and Fisher's ideas of college education were way out ahead of-- of a number of-- of trustees, who had been on the board for a long time, went through the period of reorganization following Dr. Olson's regime. And spoke pretty strongly of what they felt the college should be and they-- and Fisher didn't always agree with their point of view.
WC: [00:28:11] I would have thought the-- his work after the fire would have placed him in a really strong position.
LW: [00:28:20] Well, it did, but at the same time it's-- Fisher was an educator and-- and he-- he had his ideas of what a liberal arts college should be, what his program should be. Certain of the stronger members, certainly the more vocal members of the board of trustees, had other ideas of what the college should be and their-- where they wanted to spend money was not always where Fisher would have liked to spend money in developing the programs.
WC: [00:28:51] Where did-- what was the difference in the-- in emphasis? Was it education versus athletics?
LW: [00:28:58] That was the-- certainly that was part of the picture and I don't want to come down too heavily on athletics. Athletics has its place in the life of a college but it can-- it can get to the point where it is-- where the tail sort of tries to wag the dog a little bit and-- And there were those who were more willing to spend money on athletic programs than they were on-- on academic programs and so there is not always a meeting of the minds, and I think it made it-- made it difficult for Fisher. In his own mind, he felt that he wasn't getting through to the-- to the majority of the-- of the trustees in the way that he-- he wanted to. And this led him to make the decision, I think, to leave. He wasn't asked to leave, but he was, in his own mind, he knew that he had done about all he could do with this particular group of people. And the board of trustees, you see, in the reorganization following Olson, that there had been a very large board and as part of the reorganization plan, the board was pared way down to just about a dozen people. And so you had a few-- a few vocal people among a dozen can really rule the situation. Now under Dr. Briscoe, the board again has been expanded considerably, and I don't know how many are on it now, but probably 30, 35 wouldn't you say? [crosstalk] Something like that.
WC: [00:30:44] It's large. I don't know the exact number. [crosstalk]
LW: [00:30:45] And-- and it's brought in people from-- from far places, so to speak. Well, this-- this happened under Halverson. He began to-- To bring in trustees from a wider area. Earlier, the trustees were mainly local people. But-- but they've expanded it and brought a broader spectrum of-- of ideas into the-- into the-- trustees' meetings, which I think has been good.
WC: [00:31:23] Halvorson really changed the thrust of the board then and en-- enhanced the ability of the president to manage.
LW: [00:31:33] Yes. Yes, that's true. That's true. He began to reach out and seek out young people, presidents of corporations, vice presidents of corporations that had a little broader understanding of the nature of higher education. They had one of the vice presidents of General Motors, for example, and a man who was president of Allis Chalmers-- people of that kind that-- and a man who had been a high official with the Dupont Corporation and so on-- who had a broader view of the-- of the type of education that young people should be getting. And Fisher start-- I mean, Halverson, started that process.
WC: [00:32:24] Would you say Halverson had a good view of educational needs? That he was as tuned in on the educational needs as Fisher was, that he understood how to be a college president?
LW: [00:32:39] Well, I think so. I -- of course, he came from a different-- from a different background, a different approach. Fisher was the educator. He had been in education most of his life and-- and had worked both at the high school and the-- and the college levels and understood the educational processes. Halverson came out of the church, an ordained person. Fisher was a-- was a layman. He wasn't-- he wasn't a clergyman or ordained person. A layman that came with the-- an educator's viewpoint. Halverson came with-- with the background of the church. He had been a church administrator. Of course, he served the church earlier as a preacher and so on, but he became an administrator in-- in New York City with the-- with the church and its-- in its upper levels of administration. And he came with the-- with a vision of a church-related institution that-- that should continue that relationship, even though it was-- it was not financially a successful relationship. At the same time, he felt the moral aspect, I think, of-- of this kind of relationship and felt that the-- that the college programs should reflect that moral relationship with the church. So he came from a church background through a church-related college. Fisher had come from an educational background but a strong layman. Fisher had been-- had been a moderator of the Synod of Iowa of the [Presbyterian] church, but as a layman, not-- not as a professional church person.
WC: [00:34:38] Do you feel Halverson left the college stronger than he found it?
LW: [00:34:44] I think so. Halverson, of course, had the disadvantage of going through those years when students were in revolt against academic authority, collegiate authority, and so on, and he suffered. Halverson suffered under that. The student body was up in arms against all college administrators and-- and it was a difficult time there and the-- in the late '60, through the '60s, mostly. And although Buena Vista did not see the real rabid and almost violent uprising that some of the big universities did, at the same time, it suffered. It had to deal with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune on-- that-- that the students threw at them, at the administrators in those days and at faculty [laughs] members as well, you know, so I think he weathered that pretty well. He weathered it pretty well, and I think from that viewpoint, left the college stronger than when he came.
WC: [00:36:00] We've talked-- I don't want to overdo this of course. [both laugh] I'll get to-- we'll get to your turn at the table there eventually, but-- well, we've talked about presidents. Let's move to deans for a few moments. You served under three deans, actually. Wesselink [Bill Wesselink], John Williams, and short-- for a brief period of time under Fred Brown. That's right. How do you compare both deans in outlook in the-- ability, personality--
LW: [00:36:33] [laughs] Well, this is a little difficult. Yes, I served, and I'm glad to say, I was able to be friends with all three of them. [laughs] Dean Wesselink was a wonderful man and a fine man as a person. High moral standards. Lofty vision of things, but he was an easygoing sort of fellow on the whole. He was the son of a college president. His father had been president of Central College. And so he grew up in kind of a-- an academic atmosphere. A good churchman, a Methodist, but a very active one, good churchman, lay leader in his congregation and so on, and a great-- a great person in dealing with students on a one-to-one basis.
[00:37:34] He loved young people. He could talk to them. He could get responses out of them, and he was never a sort of a stiff, academic kind of dean, the sort of people you read about and hear about in the old days. Sort of going along. Riding the waves. But in a nice pleasant way. And-- and did very well. Whether or not under-- under later conditions, more modern conditions he would have done as well, I-- I just don't know. His own academic field was mathematics, so he had that kind of a-- of training. And-- And he could handle the mechanics of the office quite well. But I don't know what the-- what particular adjective I might use to characterize his sort of, I would say, was a soft approach [chuckles] to the problem-- [crosstalk]
WC: [00:38:56] [unintelligible]
LW: [00:38:56] Yes [both laugh] Now, John Williams, who was with us a relatively short number of years, came out of a Quaker background but-- and the more conservative part of Quakerism. And he had a much stronger notion of what a church-related college ought to be in terms of the general moral level of student life and behavior. And he was not one to-- to make compromises for that position. And he-- he felt that-- that a church-related college, in its total programs, should reflect the word "church" in, I mean, in its broadest sense. That the Christian values as delineated by-- pretty much by conservative denominations should-- should rule and should dictate the rules of academic life.
LW: [00:40:14] Well, in the years in which he was dean, see, things were moving pretty fast and in other directions. And he found it-- he found himself in a rather untenable position with both faculty and student body. Because of this rather strongly-held position of toeing the line in terms of-- of maintaining and making visible on campus the so-called Christian values, however they are described. And he would-- he would have described them with rather strict, fundamentalist terms.
[00:41:02] Fred Brown was quite different. He came from a position of being associate dean at a college in Minnesota. And came to the deanship here with a strong emphasis on academic excellence, I think. He was a Ph.D. from the University of Pennsylvania. And had a strong sense of the academic program and academic excellence and-- and tried hard to instill that, I think, in much that he did while he was dean here. And that's-- in that sense I think. I think, Fred Brown-- I didn't always agree with his positions. But on the whole, I think he was good for the institution at the time that he came to us. And he-- he reminded us all from time to time that-- that academic excellence was the thing to be sought after. And he-- he encouraged, I'm sure, he encouraged faculty people to keep up in their disciplines, and I know he encouraged several who had not finished their doctorates to go on and finish. So his academic emphasis, I think, was all for the good.
WC: [00:42:31] Do you-- do you-- it always seemed to me amazing that he could form, apparently, the solid working relationship with Briscoe that he did because I thought there was a great deal of ideological incompatibility there.
LW: [00:42:47] Yes, I would agree with that. Because, well, Dr. Briscoe's emphasis, I think, again, was on developing the college in a physical kind of sense. He-- he wanted to, of course, increase the endowment. He wanted to attract major gifts to the college for the purpose of expanding materially the buildings and so on and to undergird some of the programs. And I'm sure, although I was out of it by that time, I'm sure that he and Dr. Brown did not always see eye-to eye on the direction in which money should be spent. And yet, being quite different in personalities, they seemed to hit it off pretty well as far as administering the-- the college at the top level.
WC: [00:43:56] Do you think that John Williams realized the discontent that he created?
LW: [00:44:05] I-- I have the feeling that he realized it, and I'm not sure that he regretted having created it. I've got to-- I've got to say that I admire John. I do not agree with his theological position, but I admired his tenacity and sticking with it. There is something almost noble in the way he stood up to-- to criticism. Because he, you know, he was-- he was committed to his set of Christian interpretations. He was committed to it wholeheartedly, and he wasn't going to back down from it. He got to the point where he was convinced he couldn't continue in the institution because of that commitment. And because of the-- a failure to-- to win the college over to an equal acceptance of that set of interpretations.
WC: [00:45:11] He hired the wrong people. [laughs]
LW: [00:45:14] Yes.[laughs] Yes. He seemed to think he was hiring the right people.
WC: [00:45:19] And, in a way, he did often hire the right people, as far as their expertise was concerned, but he hired the wrong people-- [laughs]
LW: [00:45:29] That's right.
WC: [00:45:30] To-- if he was looking for support.
LW: [00:45:31] That's right. That's right. And so he reached a position where it was untenable for him. And he just had to move on. This is his decision again. But-- but, again, he knew he'd reached the limit.
WC: [00:45:45] Do you think that John Williams left the institution stronger in his area than when he came, or did he weaken it?
LW: [00:45:56] Well, I hate to say either either strengthen or weaken it. I felt that-- that he recognized his own failure in attempting to bring the college to the position that he would have liked to have it. And sort of throwing up his hands in despair that nothing can be done for this institution. Now, when he said nothing could be done for this institution, he meant in this-- in this sort of moral way-- moral, Christian-- moral way of doing it. There were those in the college, of course, who-- who who agreed with him.
LW: [00:46:42] I must say, I didn't really. I didn't. I don't think there were too many on the faculty who agreed with him in these matters or in other parts of the administration. But there were among the students those, of course, college now grown to eight or nine hundred students and you're bound to have some who would find his point of view meaningful and helpful, but to the-- speaking in terms of the total situation, I don't think he left it any stronger.
LW: [00:47:19] I wouldn't say tha--t that he actually weakened it because those who might have agreed with hi, and who might have wanted, along with John Williams, to see the college take a more narrow approach to the whole Christian and moral position, were not vocal or not organized to the point of doing much about it or carrying on that kind of approach.
WC: [00:48:05] Okay, we've talked a bit about presidents and deans. What about students? As you look back into the 1950s, you certainly-- from your own times of the 1970s-- and you keep pretty much abreast of things here in the '80s, too-- what kind of changes do you-- have you seen in this period of time?
LW: [00:48:28] Well [laughs] as I said earlier on, when I came to the institution in '54, we were serving fairly local area students. For the main, came out of small Iowa towns, came from the farms. They were largely seeking some sort of upward mobility in society, and the easiest thing, particularly for the young ladies that came to us, was to prepare for teaching. And in those early years, we were primarily a teacher training-- had a teacher training program. And we sent good teachers out into a lot of the schools, at all levels, all through northwest Iowa and a few elsewhere. But the students didn't see too much beyond this first upward mobility step. They could achieve one step up in the social scale. That was sufficient. Students did not have, in my opinion, any great vision. Or any great curiosity about the wide, wide world out there. Did you come to college, within the-- within the framework of rural Iowa, just to come to college was enough.
LW: [00:50:02] To get a vision beyond that was not part of their-- their curiosity. And it was pretty hard in those days to-- to get a spark of intellectual adventure into the-- into the students. Now. I think that has changed. Even the students who today still come out of those small high schools and small towns, I think. Somewhat due to the growth of our media, of the television, they may watch a lot of trash. But from time to time, they also become acquainted with what's happening in other parts of the world. While they're twisting the dials, occasionally come across something that leads them to think that there are other things in the world, and the bringing of students from other parts of the United States and from other countries and continents in the world, help to broaden their vision. So, I have seen, over the years, a broadening of the-- of the vision of students and certainly in these present days, when students are greatly attracted by what's our favorite word now? Entrepreneurship.
WC: [00:51:29] [chuckles]
LW: [00:51:29] But what I call the corporate world-- the world of-- of industry and corporation management and technology and communication, all of this modern world has burst upon them and has reached even into the small towns of America, wherever they are. So I think students today do come with a little greater concern about the broad world and perhaps their own future in it. Because the students I talk to, my farm friends, and none of their children want to go on the farm. They don't want to go back to farming, don't want to stay in farming, and they're looking for other-- and this forces them to consider a little more what's-- what will be the availability of other types of vocations.
WC: [00:52:29] But they're interested do you think-- very interested in the business [unintelligible] or vocation/career aspect of education and they're less interested in this-- in the humanities and-
LW: [00:52:42] Oh, I think that's true. I think that's true. But I don't think that's the fault of the college or any-- any other college like ours. I-- I think it's the trend of the times. It's the way America is going. We're technologically-oriented, all of us, and behind the technology is the business of supporting that technology. The whole area of communications, of computerization. And all of this is just paramount in everybody's thinking these days. And these young people, as they come up, they learn how to operate computers when they're down in the grades these days. My granddaughter was operating a computer [unintelligible] in the third grade, you know, and this is a way of life. And it's this technological impact upon modern life that-- that forces the humanities and the-- and there's no time for humanities. The humanities take time. You've got to learn the art of meditation. I don't mean transcendental meditation. I mean real honest-to-goodness sitting down and giving yourself time to think through what you're reading. Read the right things, and come to grips with ideas and question. But at least come to grips with them and know that the great ideas have been-- are older than just the last 50 years, which is ancient to most students. But the great ideas, you know, came out of Greece and Rome and-- and France and England and these places. Out of India and China and so on. That's the tragic thing, that there is no search for great ideas.
WC: [00:54:43] So, we're training technicians.
LW: [00:54:44] We're training technicians. That's right.
WC: [00:54:46] Not really educated people.
LW: [00:54:48] We're training schools; we are not collegiate institutions in the finest sense of the word.
WC: [00:54:53] Which is a very dangerous sign because it's a great loss for humanity-- [crosstalk].
LW: [00:54:57] It is. It is.
WC: [00:54:57] --and humaneness.
LW: [00:54:58] That's right.
WC: [00:55:00] I mean, how can we really create a humane civilization or [unintelligible] for the future, you know? Do you see a difference in the, again, of the students of the '50s to, say, today? I mean, when I came in in the '50s, I felt, what good people and I didn't see any drug problem. I didn't really see much alcoholism. But now, we have enormous drug problems including a problem with alcohol. There was no alcohol on-- on campus and now they-- they scream about the accessib-- availability of alcohol.
LW: [00:55:44] Well, there was always-- even when-- when I came, and even in-- in the '50s there was a bit of an alcohol problem. You could find it. It was always there, in the background. It wasn't as open and evident as it later became. And, again, this is the opening up more-- of more freedom of that kind in our society. And these things are so pervasive, the whole drug bit, the alcohol bit and so on, these are such pervasive things they just-- they just seep out from their centers, out into the farthest corners of-- of American life. And it's-- it's a tremendous danger, and it's gotten to the point where it's almost beyond control. Look at the struggle that our nation is having with this drug problem.
LW: [00:56:42] And there's so much money involved in these things. It's almost impossible to control and-- and-- and even to try to educate people with some hope of an intelligent response.
LW: [00:56:57] Educate young people to the dangers of drugs and alcohol. It doesn't get too far. Because of the power of this pervasive evil that-- that is affecting our society infecting-- and if you don't have a background of-- of intelligence and the ability to make judgments, moral judgments. You see philosophy that's been dropped out of many of the liberal arts programs. Philosophy is no longer there. If it's there, it's a very peripheral kind of presentation in ethics. And I'm-- I'm not speaking now in narrow religious terms. I speak in the broad sense of what Socrates and Plato and Aristotle were talking about, when they talked about the good. What is the good, what is the beautiful, what is the true and so on. And we don't bring young people face-to-face with those ideas. And so they have no basis for making moral judgments about their own lives in modern years, and the peer pressure for these things is the great influencing agent. For the-- for the presence and the extent and the growth of these evils such as drugs and alcohol in our society.
WC: [00:58:40] So, a degree today really doesn't leave them with the ability to cope.
LW: [00:58:46] No.
WC: [00:58:46] To the extent--
LW: [00:58:48] No.
WC: [00:58:50] that earlier education--
LW: [00:58:52] Th-- the degree unfortunately, and I say this with great sadness, the degree is only a couple of letters that says you have been in school for six-- for 16 years. That's about it.
WC: [00:59:07] Mm-hmm. Les-- what-- Is there anything that you remember-- let me put it this way. What do you remember from your experience at Buena Vista the most fondly and the least?
LW: [00:59:32] [chuckles] Well, let's start out with the least. I could very well have done without those years in the '60s, during the years of student rebellion, student revolt. They were unpleasant times in many ways, and I'm sure educators everywhere who were in college, university, life during those years might say the same thing. We could very well have done without them. Oh, they may have brought a certain degree of-- of student activity to bear upon student life, brought about some change that were maybe good changes. But on the whole, that was an unpleasant time to be in it.
LW: [01:00:16] The things I remember most are--- are those good students that one always had in one's classes. Of course, in addition to being an administrator, I was always in the classroom 'till the very last couple of years. And I remember very fondly students who did well, were good students. You always had a preponderance of the-- of the mediocre, but you always had a few that came through, and you remember them fondly. You appreciated them, appreciated the way they did their work. And every once in a while, when I'm out someplace, someone will come up to me and said [sic], "Oh, I was in one of your classes," and I-- I always say, "Oh, were you and what grade did I give you?" and most of the time they can't remember. [laughs] I don't remember without going back to my classbooks. But-- but they-- they speak nicely and [laughs] then they say-- you know it was nice to be there. They-- they're the things that-- that an educator remembers with great fondness.
WC: [01:01:30] How do you see your own place in the college histor?
LW: [01:01:41] [laughs] A ver,y very small place but one that I appreciated very much. I appreciated all my years at Buena Vista. Buena Vista was good to me not in terms of any monetary reward, certainly, but in terms of providing me a place that, on the whole, was was pleasant to be, a chance to, at least, say what I wanted to say to students and to faculty from my administrative positions, to faculty and other administrators. I had the chance to do that and to have a little-- a little bit to do with, I guess, with the growth and progress of the school. I can't say that I made any major contributions but-- but the school did provide me with an, on the whole, a pleasant experience.
WC: [01:02:40] What-- what do you see [as] the most difficult problem ahead for Buena Vista?
LW: [01:02:45] Well, it's gotten to a point now where I-- a few years ago I would have said just staying alive, but [laughs] but due to the generosity of Mr. Siebens and others, it looks as though they're pretty well established. I would hope that Buena Vista would not succumb completely to the-- to the business corporation entrepreneur syndrome, in which it finds itself at the moment. I would hope, and I think I'm optimistic enough to believe, that colleges like Buena Vista will in the not- too-distant future revive an interest in the humanities and the liberal arts.
LW: [01:03:46] I think our world will be coming exhausted with this infernal emphasis upon technology and computerization and all the rest. I think people are getting to the point where they're beginning to realize the dangers of that kind of constant emphasis that controls life mechanically. We live by numbers. We all-- we all carry with us a score of numbers by which we are identified. Social Security number, personal telephone number, private number of our-- our automatic teller machine system, zip codes. I mean we're-- we live the life of numbers, and this depersonalizes life, and I think people eventually will come to the point where they say, enough is enough. We have been depersonalized as far as we can stand it, and we've got to-- to-- to reclaim the basics of our human nature, our human essence.
[01:05:04] And I would hope that the way through that reclamation will be through a fresh appreciation of-- of the arts. Of our writers and dramatists and poets and painters and philosophers and historians and the people who can reclaim the things that we have been in danger of losing. The world has gone through this before. We-- we've-- we've had renaissances from time to time [chuckles] in the world, after the world threw away its great heritage. But always there is a remnant and out of the remnant comes a fresh light with the sometimes-- merely a reinterpretation of a very old light. This is what happened in the Renaissance or when they-- when they rediscovered, even the Arab world, rediscovered the greatness of Plato and Aristotle and raised up their own philosophers [unintelligible] others. It's happened before, and I think it'll happen again.
WC: [01:06:24] Of course, the computer is obviously here to stay.
LW: [01:06:27] It's here to stay. No doubt about that. And in many ways, it's a great convenience. I'm not-- I don't want to detract completely from it. It's a great convenience, and it can do marvelous things. It can also get us into trouble because a computer is only as good as the people who operate it. And you feed it [crosstalk] in order to get a feedback.
WC: [01:06:50] It drowns you in information.
LW: [01:06:53] Yes, exactly. You can't-- there isn't even time to sort everything out. We are so inundated with that information, that we don't have time to sit back and sort it all out and put it into perspective. Where today are the great writers like Aristotle? Thomas Aquinas. And even in our own time, people like Will and Ariel Durant, who wrote the great story of civilization. This is a tremendous effort, as Aquinas did to-- to correlate all knowledge. And to bring it together and-- and look for patterns in life that are meaningful. And we need to get back to a little of that. We still need some great mind, great minds to-- to make the effort. Such as [Arnold J.] Toynbee. Now, Toynbee had his shortcomings as a-- as an historian, I'm sure but-- but he made that effort to-- to see a pattern and to correlate the events of history in such a way that they made sense.
WC: [01:08:13] Well, we turn out so much data today I-- even as you think of as simple a thing as writing the history of Buena Vista College. The first time I did it, I went around with pen and notebook and got my information. This time I-- the technology of the college has enabled the production of an unbelievable amount of memos and minutes. The Briscoe administration, I daresa,y has put out more information than all the others combined, perhaps triple the others combined.
LW: [01:08:48] And because the mechanics of doing it are much easier.
WC: [01:08:52] But you can't believe the problem that it creates.
LW: [01:08:54] Oh, yeah. [agreeing]
WC: [01:08:54] I started working on that computer, and I put it on these little discs, but I don't realize how much I've got in there until I run it off. And it's just almost impossible for a single person to try to put it together. [laughs]
LW: [01:09:08] That's right. That's right. Yeah.
WC: [01:09:12] Les, you don't-- do you remember who was really responsible for the idea behind the Order of the Arch? When I wrote the first volume, I credited it to Gordon Hermanson, and Halverson told me when he was here that he was the one. [chuckles]
LW: [01:09:31] Well, that's a question I can't really answer, Bill, I-- I don't know.
EW: [01:09:37] I think it was Halverson.
LW: [01:09:40] You think it was Halverson? Well, I would-- I would be inclined to think it was Halverson. But-- but maybe-- maybe he and and Hermanson worked so closely together at that point, that you know it just popped up between them. But I would give Halverson credit for it.
WC: [01:09:59] Do you have any idea when they-- each class used to give the college a gift?
LW: [01:10:06] Yeah.
WC: [01:10:07] But they don't do that anymore, do they?.
LW: [01:10:07] No, I don't think so
WC: [01:10:07] I wonder when that ended.
LW: [01:10:09] Oh, I think--
WC: [01:10:10] Were they still doing that when--
LW: [01:10:11] I think that-- I think that dropped out during that period of rebellion in the '60s, you know.
WC: [01:10:17] A lot of-- a lot of old traditions [crosstalk- LW: ' remarks are unintelligible] The smoking of the pipe-- peace pipe, that went out--
LW: [01:10:27] That went out, yeah.
EW: [01:10:27] They used to have the burning of the log at Christmastime.
LW: [01:10:31] Yeah, they used to have the log burning over at Swope Hall.
EW: [01:10:31] Phoebe Lafoy [unintelligible].
WC: [01:10:31] Yeah, well, they do have a little ceremony though, of some kind.
LW: [01:10:34] Well, we used to go out and sing in the cold weather around the Christmas tree, out in front of Dixon-Eilers. They lit the tree, and I can remember the music department people being out there to lead us in,Christmas carols and-- they don't do that, anymore.
WC: [01:10:50] There used to be a senior swing out.
LW: [01:10:51] Yes.
EW: [01:10:51] Right.
WC: [01:10:53] And--.
LW: [01:10:55] Most of the traditions of the old Buena Vista have gone by the board. Now, I don't know whether they're-- if in creating tradition, if they started anything, if it will become a tradition or not. I haven't seen anything.
WC: [01:11:08] We used to plant a tree every-- there was a tree planting ceremony.
LW: [01:11:15] About the--
EW: [01:11:15] Dr. Briscoe thought he was starting a tradition when we had the burning of the trees over at the--
LW: [01:11:21] Oh, the Twelfth Night.
WC: [01:11:21] Twelfth Night.
LW: [01:11:22] Yes, that's right. He wanted that.
EW: [01:11:22] They found out that it was too cold. They gave a prize, you know.
LW: [01:11:26] That only lasted a couple of years.
EW: [01:11:30] Only a few years, yes, mm-hmm.
LW: [01:11:31] Well, it was the wrong time of year. [laughs]
WC: [01:11:34] Edith, would you like to make some comments on--
LW: [01:11:43] Get it off your chest.
EW: [01:11:44] I can't think of anything.
WC: [01:11:44] [Laughs] Well, I thought I might ask you about the role of the Faculty Dames during the period that you were here. What kind of a role do you feel they played in their principal accomplishment?
EW: [01:11:56] I think the Faculty Dames played a very important role in those early days. That was a large organization, so large that we met over at the college rather than individual homes. And then we divided up into interest groups. They had a gourmet cooking group, a literary group that went in for studying of books, and then they had the needlework group, and a bridge group. And they would meet at different times, but there was always one time when they would meet monthly as a Faculty Dames group. People weren't as involved in the outside world then as they are now. I mean, women are so busy with-- more women in the work-a-day world than there were at that time, and with other interests also, and so it isn't as easy now to get the group together to-- in the same way as they did then. It was interesting, under the various women-- wives of the presidents, how are they reacted to these Faculty Dames, too.
EW: [01:13:00] Mrs. Fisher, Ruth Ann Fisher, was one who loved to entertain in her home, using the college students as the people to help her in the preparations. And when Marian Halverson came, she was a person who was very much interested in the-- what we call it today, the ERA, in the-- the liberated woman. And she was a person who taught, and so she taught for a while at the college and then outside of the college, and she was very busy in the outside world. And-- then the-- with the [unintelligible] Carmen is-- she's a real busy person and just a charming individual, who works very well with her husband in-- as the president. It's interesting to see the different roles played throughout the years. But I think as far as Faculty Dames go, it isn't at all what it had been long before. Although they do still serve in many capacities at the time of graduation and the like. We used to be called on almost a dozen times during the school year to serve in various capacities for teas and social occasions and the like.
WC: [01:14:14] Do think we've lost something in closeness?
EW: [01:14:19] Oh, decidedly yes, mm-hmm. We used to see a kind of a family spirit in the Dames. We don't see that, I don't think, anymore. It's just another organization that you go to because maybe you're supposed to.
WC: [01:14:33] Well, I have a feeling that's true of the whole faculty community, really, that we aren't close anymore. We're all doing our own thing, and there's not the comradeship there once was. In the early years I was here, in the '50s and even in the '60s, I felt that way. But now, I feel that entrepreneurship has captivated everyone, and everybody is pushin,g pushing, pushing. I don't know whether that's just me or-- I--
EW: [01:15:07] No, I think that's very true. uh-hh. Very. Uh-huh.
WC: [01:15:13] Which-- would you care to comment on if-- of the three first ladies you you mention, you want to comment a little more on the differences among them and their peculiar contributions to the college?
EW: [01:15:28] Well, I think Ruth Ann Fisher was very community-minded as far as social life is concerned. She was very wrapped up in the social life of the community. And as far as the-- in the home, I think they were great for people for sleeping very late in the morning. I hope this isn't for anything special, but, I mean, their day wouldn't start until around noon time because they were late sleepers, and Jack Fisher would often get over to the college around the noon time rather than early-- to start early, but then he would work 'till late at night. So, it was a different [kind] of schedule that he had.
[01:16:09] And then, Marian Halverson, she was wrapped up in her family, her three children, and then, as I say, in the outside world, and she was a very vociferous individual to the point where maybe some people didn't understand her outspoken spirit that she had. And now, I think Carmen is very well accepted in the community and is getting along very nicely. But they all have their individual points, and you can't compare one with the other, and each have made a real contribution in her role.
WC: [01:16:51] Do either of you have any concluding statements you would like to make? Something you'd like to say that I haven't brought up.
LW: [01:17:01] I don't think I have. I think I've said quite enough, really, in talking about the college. I-- I feel free to criticize some of the direction in which the college has moved, and I think, to be fair, I think that's largely because I was raised in a different kind of collegiate atmosphere and-- and I carry that along with me all the time. And I always had hoped that--that the strong liberal arts and humanistic approach of college education would continue to be a major characteristic of higher education in this countr,y and it saddens me to see that that's slipping away.
LW: [01:17:57] There are pockets, however, of course to be found in the big universities that can afford these departments. [chuckles] But in the smaller colleges it's-- it's simply accommodation to what's happening in-- in society and in our culture generally, and I'm well-- Buena Vista is pretty well established. It's going to go on for a long time.
EW: [01:18:21] Yes, thinking of the small institutions where we got together as families because we were small. But now, for the size of the institution, it isn't the same, and this is true in all the institutions of higher learning where the mem-- where the student population has increased so much. And the faculty has increased, so you don't have that same coziness you had before.
LW: [01:18:43] It's one of the things that certainly you will deal with when in-- in the history of the college in these more modern times is this proliferation of off campus programs and courses and and classes. I don't know what the accrediting organizations have to say about this kind of thing. I've not seen their reports in recent years. I I must confess I had some doubts about the validity of that kind of operation. The--. And yet there are more students enrolled in the off campus programs than-- than the on campus program.
WC: [01:19:29] Certainly a lot more graduates [laughs].
LW: [01:19:31] And the-- the number of graduates but-- see my problem is does this represent college education at its best. You you pick up teachers for the programs wherever you can find them here and there. I'm not sure what their-- what their adequacy is for the job they're called upon to do.
LW: [01:19:56] I'm sure in many instances, they're very fine people, very well educated, but where is the access to-- to libraries? A good library. Where is their access to-- to scientific equipment, for example and this kind of thing. There is a great limitation on what you can do on these-- on these far-out satellites-- satellite campuses. What you're able to do is, it's quite limited. And I question the total academic standing of that kind of an operation. That's one thing I find very difficult to-- to come to grips with, in my own thinking.
WC: [01:20:50] Well that may be a cause for concern because North Central will be coming around here in another year.
LW: [01:20:56] I want-- I don't know what North Central's attitude is toward that. I would think they'd be very concerned.
WC: [01:21:01] Well NCATE [National Council for Accreditation of Teacher Education] wasn't all that enthusiastic when we tried to get the Council Bluffs center accreditated [sic] accredited by NCATE. And NCATE wasn't going to give any of us accreditation so we separated the two.
LW: [01:21:21] Yeah. I can understand that.
WC: [01:21:23] And my understanding is that North Central's taking a tougher stance now.
LW: [01:21:30] Well, well they might. Well they might. But that is a concern of mine in the total picture of the college because we, you know, we advertise ourselves as being a college of what fifteen hundred, two thousand, whatever it is. But you see when you have half of that number being in the of- campus satellite programs, then you begin to question whether-- whether this is a-- whether these are justified as proper collegiate education centers.
WC: [01:22:08] I think I'm well-- got a little tape left, but you have anything any other comment you'd like to make? Either one of you?
LW: [01:22:19] Well, I don't think I have. Well, I think I've pretty well covered my views and situation.
WC: [01:22:29] Well, I want to thank you very much. This is William H. Cumberland signing off.
LW=Lester Williams
EW=Edith Williams
WC: [00:00:02] This is an interview that I'm conducting with Dr. LW: and EW: on July 7 1989, pertaining to the history of Buena Vista College. There are a number of questions that I-- that I have. And the first question. Would you care to compare the Fisher and the Halverson and the Briscoe administrations or these three men and some of the qualities which they've had as president of Buena Vista College.
LW: [00:00:51] Well, these three regimes are different from each other naturally because the regime carries the imprint of an individual and each individual operates in a different way. I think the Fisher years were marked, of course, by the beginning of what came to be a major building program that lasted over several years at the college. This came about accidentally because of the fire that destroyed Old Main in the fall shortly after school opened, shortly after the college opened in the fall of '56, wasn't it?
WC: [00:01:39] Right, right.
[00:01:40] [All talking at once] September of '56.
LW: [00:01:40] That's right. Edith and I were that night at a PTA meeting of the local public schools, and we heard the sirens and so on, and when we came out from the meeting there, we looked to the west and saw the sky all aglow with obviously a major fire and we-- my first suggestion was that's over at the college. And so we headed there, got over there and stood across the street. Old Main was ablaze by that time, and we watched the building go up in flames and saw beautiful pianos that had been in the music department, up on the second floor, crashing through the floors down below. I saw my office all ablaze and realized that I was about to lose a few hundred books in the process and there was kind of a sickening feeling. And that night, those of us who were part of the administration, stayed all-- up all night making plans for meeting places of classes and how we could handle the situation. I may say that the students-- the entire student body that night acted just nobly. They-- fortunately, in a sense, the fire started at the top of the building and worked its way down, which meant that the fire progressed somewhat slower than if it had started at the bottom and gone up.
LW: [00:03:19] This gave the students a chance, through a kind of a chain line that they formed, of getting out all of the college records from the business office. There was not a student record, not a student file that was lost in that fire. So that the student records from which transcripts could be made were intact and this was due to the-- to the quick action of the student body itself and we all commended the students for that. We assembled, those of us in the administration, assembled out on the lawn for a while and talked over what we should do. We went into one of the other buildings, and we struggled all night long, making plans for classes and, as a matter of fact, we never lost an hour of classroom activity. Because the next day, we were able, through the generosity of the churches of the community that offered their facilities and by shifting things around on campus, we were able to carry on the regular class schedules beginning the very next day. It was an unusual night.
LW: [00:04:34] Well, that started a building program that went on for, well, almost down to the present time. But the beginning of that and the push for that was under the Fisher administration. Dr. Fisher that night was at a-- an educational meeting way up at the Lakes. And when he heard about it-- someone called up and informed him what was happening, he immediately felt, as the rest of us did, a little heartsick about it, but he rushed down and took control and from that time on directed the raising of funds for-- immediately to replace old Main. And then other buildings as well. New dormitories and so on. So, that-- I would say that-- that beginning of the building program marked the-- the chief activity in a sense of the Fisher regime.
LW: [00:05:39] Now, by the time Halverson came along, he became involved-- became involved, of course, in the continuation of a concern for-- for the physical expansion of the college. We were beginning just then to grow in numbers in enrollment. When I came to the college in the fall of '54, the total student enrollment was just a little over 300 students. We were a small institution. But a very dedicated one through all of-- all of those years. The next-- the next plan was to expand the-- the student population on campus and during those years, we reached out to make the student body a little more cosmopolitan. We had been a very provincial college early on. We served primarily the students from Buena Vista County and the-- and the nearby surrounding area. The vast majority of our students came from the small towns and small high schools of northwest Iowa. But we didn't reach out much beyond that.
LW: [00:07:09] But during the Halverson years we were trying to reach out, and we began to attract, by the use of people who represented the college, we began to attract students from the Chicago area and also from the East Coast. We had students from New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, places like that because the eastern colleges were being pushed pretty hard on enrollments, and they were becoming overpopulated, and the students were not being accepted. And so they were looking elsewhere, and we had a chance to pick up some students, and many of them were very fine students that came from those areas. We maintained a representative in Chicago who visited the schools for that area. And on the East Coast, in and around New York.
LW: [00:08:08] And I would think that at least part of the Halverson regime was-- was marked by this kind of emphasis. We even reached out for foreign students almost for the first time and attracted from-- some students from Africa and from the Middle East, from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, and those places, who found us or written up in various catalogs or were available to them in the American embassies over there in their countries. And so we began to build a more cosmopolitan kind of student population, which I think was good for our local students to come in contact with these students from other parts of the United States and of the world. Good for them to come to a part of America that was not as well known perhaps as places like New York and Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston. That was-- that was largely the-- done through the Halverson years.
LW: [00:09:21] Now Dr. Briscoe came then, following Dr. Halverson, and the whole thrust of the college took a different tack with a different direction. Again, the building program continued the generosity of people who saw some value in contributing to the growth of the college materially. And there was a change of direction more toward the business-oriented kind of program. Through all three of these regimes, the college has gone from what was basically a liberal arts emphasis to a more business-oriented kind of emphasis. Apparently going along with the times, where young people were more desirous of getting into the corporation world and so we were-- the college is trying to meet that need. I may say that that was not unique to Buena Vista College. I think colleges generally, and in more modern times in the last 25, 30 years, have tended more and more to-- to phase out certain liberal arts emphases on campuses and go more and more to-- to a business and communications and journalistic type of program. I think that, to me, marks the sort of the distinctive aspects of these three.
WC: [00:11:23] Well, what do you think would have happened if Buena Vista had not followed that route but it had remained true to the liberal arts concept of the founding fathers?
LW: [00:11:34] Well, I'm afraid, to be realistic about it, I'm afraid that the college would have had pretty hard going. College to me-- a college, it should be kind of an idealistic sort of place, and I'm a product of a-- of a strong liberal arts undergraduate school in Pennsylvania. And in those days, the college I attended was recognized as a good liberal arts institution that prepared people to go into graduate schools where they would put emphasis on a more professional goal that they were tending toward.
[00:12:21] But meanwhile we were convinced, and the professions were convinced, that a solid liberal arts education was necessary to achieve success in the professional field, whether it was education or law or medicine or theology or whatever. One-- one was expected to prepare one's mind through the undergraduate years to come to grips with-- with the proper ways of making judgments with the development of a total man in terms of preparation for life, not only vocationally but even avocationally. So that he's prepared to enjoy life while at the same time is trained somewhat-- trained his mind to-- to reach proper judgments in life. And then the preparation for one's vocation came more at the graduate level. I think this has changed a great deal, to my own sorrow, that the liberal arts are being more and more neglected, neglected, as being non-essential to life success. And I feel that this is a great mistake. I still believe that the-- that the education of the mind in the broadest sense of the word is-- is pretty important because the higher you get, even in the corporation world, the more you're called upon to make pretty solid judgments, and if your mind hasn't been trained to look at all of the options and possibilities and weigh them ethically, morally, and all the rest, there's something very lacking in life.
WC: [00:14:34] Iy was really the gift that changed the college. Without the gift, Briscoe could not really have taken the college down the road that he did, at least not to that extent.
LW: [00:14:46] Well, I think that's true. That certainly hastened this transition from-- from the days when, of course, the college had been established on the foundation as many, many small colleges, particularly those under church sponsorship were established, to give the kind of preparation I'm talking about. The stretching of the mind the-- the-- the understanding of the nature of life and of the world and all of its complications and inter-relationships and interactions to a more vocationally-oriented-- at the undergraduate level, vocationally-oriented program, which leaves out these more basic kinds of courses that stretch-- stretch the mind and enable one to-- to read and understand and-- and come to grips with the-- with the deeper and more basic aspects of human existence.
WC: [00:15:52] I think you'd agree with me that the church relationship has changed dramatically under the Briscoe administration as well.
LW: [00:16:00] Well, yes, but it had started even earlier. The church, of course, in the largest sense, found itself not able to-- to underwrite with dollars and cents, the programs of the colleges that they sponsored. All of the major mainline denominations supported colleges. Many colleges. The Methodists have a great many colleges under their aegis. The Presbyterians have a great many colleges, there are Episcopalian colleges and United Church of Christ colleges and so on. And the church was in the college business. Well, through the years, when they started that, they wanted to see to it that those who were going to occupy positions of leadership in the denominations should have a thorough grounding in the liberal arts before they went on for a theological-- theological emphasis and preparation and-- But this is gone now and-- and the church found itself in a position where it could not support, in a monetary way, the colleges that they had started and had supported earlier on. And so the church, because of that, lost a good deal of influence in the college. It was just sort of a lip service kind of relationship. Yes, we're a Presbyterian related-college, but when you come through the actual-- what that actually means, you see, and it means practically nothing in terms of a dollars-and-cents support.
WC: [00:17:52] But it doesn't have a governmental control of any kind anymore, either, does it? I mean, at one time--
LW: [00:17:59] No.
WC: [00:17:59] They could be members of-- The members of the board of trustees had to be approved by the Synod.
LW: [00:18:04] That's true.
WC: [00:18:04] Is that still true or--
LW: [00:18:07] If it is, now I can't speak for-- immediately for the present time, because I've been away from it long enough now that I don't know if it is true. It's nothing more, as it was in my day, and nothing more than submitting a list of people that we wanted for trustees and it was rubber stamped by the authorities at synod level. What could they do? They had no-- no way of really controlling the institution. They were just kind of a kind of a moral [crosstalk] relationship.
WC: [00:18:40] They had an awful lot of clout during the Olson administration because--
LW: [00:18:45] They did.
WC: [00:18:46] Wasn't the synod that really brought about Olson's resignation?
LW: [00:18:50] Yes, this is true. The synod plus the national offices. The denomination had a national office of higher education through which all the concerns of the colleges under the Presbyterian aegis were-- were dealt with and handled. And they did have a good deal of control because of a kind of a fixed relationship, where the approval of the General Assembly, the highest body of the church, had to be sought each year. And they inquired. We had to fill out forms and make reports to the Synod and to the national body on what we were doing and whether we were growing or not and what our problems were and so on. So, there was a good deal of control from the-- from the division of higher education of the national body of the Presbyterian church. Well, that is all gone. The people who-- who were in charge of that who were very able educators in their own right as well as church leaders, they're all gone now and-- and the whole relationship has deteriorated until it's nothing more than a-- I say, kind of a lip service.
WC: [00:20:16] So the church really lost interest in the college as well maybe the college losing interest in the church. It worked both ways. [crosstalk]
LW: [00:20:23] Yes. You see there was-- there was [sic] the days when church-related colleges were expected to have compulsory chapel, for exam-- this was a symbol, a sign of a church relationship. Well, the time came, of course, when-- when that all changed and it was-- you can't put your finger on any one thing that brought that about. It was just that the turbulence of the times, the revolt of the students in all of the colleges and universities, church-related and otherwise, but a general revolt and students reaching out and making demands and saying, "We-- we no longer need this we don't want to. We're not going to put up with it." And colleges, to save their own existence, had to make compromises along the way. And I don't know of any college now-- there may be a few a very strict fundamentalist type institutions where you can get by with a compulsory chapel service, but you can't in the average church-related college.
WC: [00:21:29] Would you call it independent, now, for all prac--
LW: [00:21:32] I think, for all practical purposes we are an independent institution, yes.
WC: [00:21:35] And we--
LW: [00:21:36] Small private independent. Self-control through the board of trustees. Yeah.
WC: [00:21:44] This is an evolutionary process, but we can see it most clearly during the Briscoe administration.
LW: [00:21:49] Well I think-- I think it's come to its-- its ultimate-- [crosstalk]
WC: [00:21:55] I think he-- I was sitting in a centennial meeting and somebody passed out a sheet and the date of 1976 that was on there and I tried to pin people down on that, and I really don't get a satisfactory [laughter] answer. [unintelligible] there was some sudden demarcation line here. But the church decided they-- they really didn't have this control anymore, ya know.
LW: [00:22:28] Well now, you see there was a time through most of the history of our church-related colleges, the president of the institution had to be a member of the denomination that-- that-- that controlled or attempted to control--
WC: [00:22:41] Was that part of Olson's trouble?
LW: [00:22:45] I'm not sure that it was. I think-- I don't know too many of the details of the Olson administration but Olson, from what I hear, he brought the college through an extremely difficult time. Money was very tight and-- and Doctor Olson went out, as I'm told by those who were with the institution in those days, and literally begged nickels and dimes from people to keep the institution open. There was a time when members of the faculty were paid with sacks of potatoes and-- it was that bad. It was-- it was the economy of the times that I think defeated Olson and he-- he gave noble service in keeping the institution alive but to do, that the methods of doing it, of course, were very uncertain and inadequate. There was no solid planning and so the finances of the college got to-- into a very-- very uncertain and unsatisfactory condition. Because there was no solid economic planning for the institution, and you lived a hand-to-mouth existence. But then along came, as I say, the-- the action under the fire shortly after Olson left, and the new regime came in, which changed everything.
WC: [00:24:18] Was Fisher a good administrator?
LW: [00:24:20] Fisher was a good administrator. He-- he came out of a-- of a background-- He was a public school teacher for a while. His field was science. Then he taught at Coe College, I believe, before he came to Buena Vista. [Mrs. Williams speaks in the background, but it is unintelligible.] And he took things in stride and he-- he gave leadership, and he was forceful without being dictatorial. And I think he gave very good leadership and began to look at long-range planning for an institution, again forced by the action of the fire and the necessity to plan for the future of the college. See, the people that night-- people locally felt this was the end of the college. It's burned down. This is the end of the college. Old Main was our principal building and-- and people just assumed that the phoenix would not rise from the ashes that night. But through the spirit that Fisher brought to the institution and his determination to see that the-- that the college did not fail because of that experience. He gave very forceful and forthright leadership in a very difficult time.
WC: [00:25:49] Did the downtown respond well to the Fisher administration, do you feel?
LW: [00:25:54] I think, on the whole, they did. Dr. Fisher was-- was a man who could-- who could get along with people and compromise at points where a compromise was-- was needed and practical. And I think,on the whole, he got along quite well with the-- with his board of trustees. 'Course the time came when he felt he should move on to other things, and he became president up at Jamestown College in North Dakota.
WC: [00:26:29] I wonder if he felt that was a mistake. [laughter]
LW: [00:26:32] Well, like all college-- all small colleges in the Midwest, Jamestown was having those problems too, and-- but he stayed there a number of years and, in those days, the average tenure for the president of a small college was not more than six or seven years anyway. He stayed-- what, eight, about eight or ten something like that. I've forgotten the exact number, but something like that. And he felt it was time to move on. And there were problems. There were-- Boards of Trustees are difficult to get along with, at best. And when you get some strong characters on the board who-- who face each other with their own preconceived notions of what education ought to be, you sometimes have problems.
WC: [00:27:27] Do you think Fisher was having problems when he left here, with the board?
LW: [00:27:31] Yes. Oh yes, I-- I think there's no question about that. He was having problems. Mostly it was a matter of personalities and-- and Fisher's ideas of college education were way out ahead of-- of a number of-- of trustees, who had been on the board for a long time, went through the period of reorganization following Dr. Olson's regime. And spoke pretty strongly of what they felt the college should be and they-- and Fisher didn't always agree with their point of view.
WC: [00:28:11] I would have thought the-- his work after the fire would have placed him in a really strong position.
LW: [00:28:20] Well, it did, but at the same time it's-- Fisher was an educator and-- and he-- he had his ideas of what a liberal arts college should be, what his program should be. Certain of the stronger members, certainly the more vocal members of the board of trustees, had other ideas of what the college should be and their-- where they wanted to spend money was not always where Fisher would have liked to spend money in developing the programs.
WC: [00:28:51] Where did-- what was the difference in the-- in emphasis? Was it education versus athletics?
LW: [00:28:58] That was the-- certainly that was part of the picture and I don't want to come down too heavily on athletics. Athletics has its place in the life of a college but it can-- it can get to the point where it is-- where the tail sort of tries to wag the dog a little bit and-- And there were those who were more willing to spend money on athletic programs than they were on-- on academic programs and so there is not always a meeting of the minds, and I think it made it-- made it difficult for Fisher. In his own mind, he felt that he wasn't getting through to the-- to the majority of the-- of the trustees in the way that he-- he wanted to. And this led him to make the decision, I think, to leave. He wasn't asked to leave, but he was, in his own mind, he knew that he had done about all he could do with this particular group of people. And the board of trustees, you see, in the reorganization following Olson, that there had been a very large board and as part of the reorganization plan, the board was pared way down to just about a dozen people. And so you had a few-- a few vocal people among a dozen can really rule the situation. Now under Dr. Briscoe, the board again has been expanded considerably, and I don't know how many are on it now, but probably 30, 35 wouldn't you say? [crosstalk] Something like that.
WC: [00:30:44] It's large. I don't know the exact number. [crosstalk]
LW: [00:30:45] And-- and it's brought in people from-- from far places, so to speak. Well, this-- this happened under Halverson. He began to-- To bring in trustees from a wider area. Earlier, the trustees were mainly local people. But-- but they've expanded it and brought a broader spectrum of-- of ideas into the-- into the-- trustees' meetings, which I think has been good.
WC: [00:31:23] Halvorson really changed the thrust of the board then and en-- enhanced the ability of the president to manage.
LW: [00:31:33] Yes. Yes, that's true. That's true. He began to reach out and seek out young people, presidents of corporations, vice presidents of corporations that had a little broader understanding of the nature of higher education. They had one of the vice presidents of General Motors, for example, and a man who was president of Allis Chalmers-- people of that kind that-- and a man who had been a high official with the Dupont Corporation and so on-- who had a broader view of the-- of the type of education that young people should be getting. And Fisher start-- I mean, Halverson, started that process.
WC: [00:32:24] Would you say Halverson had a good view of educational needs? That he was as tuned in on the educational needs as Fisher was, that he understood how to be a college president?
LW: [00:32:39] Well, I think so. I -- of course, he came from a different-- from a different background, a different approach. Fisher was the educator. He had been in education most of his life and-- and had worked both at the high school and the-- and the college levels and understood the educational processes. Halverson came out of the church, an ordained person. Fisher was a-- was a layman. He wasn't-- he wasn't a clergyman or ordained person. A layman that came with the-- an educator's viewpoint. Halverson came with-- with the background of the church. He had been a church administrator. Of course, he served the church earlier as a preacher and so on, but he became an administrator in-- in New York City with the-- with the church and its-- in its upper levels of administration. And he came with the-- with a vision of a church-related institution that-- that should continue that relationship, even though it was-- it was not financially a successful relationship. At the same time, he felt the moral aspect, I think, of-- of this kind of relationship and felt that the-- that the college programs should reflect that moral relationship with the church. So he came from a church background through a church-related college. Fisher had come from an educational background but a strong layman. Fisher had been-- had been a moderator of the Synod of Iowa of the [Presbyterian] church, but as a layman, not-- not as a professional church person.
WC: [00:34:38] Do you feel Halverson left the college stronger than he found it?
LW: [00:34:44] I think so. Halverson, of course, had the disadvantage of going through those years when students were in revolt against academic authority, collegiate authority, and so on, and he suffered. Halverson suffered under that. The student body was up in arms against all college administrators and-- and it was a difficult time there and the-- in the late '60, through the '60s, mostly. And although Buena Vista did not see the real rabid and almost violent uprising that some of the big universities did, at the same time, it suffered. It had to deal with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune on-- that-- that the students threw at them, at the administrators in those days and at faculty [laughs] members as well, you know, so I think he weathered that pretty well. He weathered it pretty well, and I think from that viewpoint, left the college stronger than when he came.
WC: [00:36:00] We've talked-- I don't want to overdo this of course. [both laugh] I'll get to-- we'll get to your turn at the table there eventually, but-- well, we've talked about presidents. Let's move to deans for a few moments. You served under three deans, actually. Wesselink [Bill Wesselink], John Williams, and short-- for a brief period of time under Fred Brown. That's right. How do you compare both deans in outlook in the-- ability, personality--
LW: [00:36:33] [laughs] Well, this is a little difficult. Yes, I served, and I'm glad to say, I was able to be friends with all three of them. [laughs] Dean Wesselink was a wonderful man and a fine man as a person. High moral standards. Lofty vision of things, but he was an easygoing sort of fellow on the whole. He was the son of a college president. His father had been president of Central College. And so he grew up in kind of a-- an academic atmosphere. A good churchman, a Methodist, but a very active one, good churchman, lay leader in his congregation and so on, and a great-- a great person in dealing with students on a one-to-one basis.
[00:37:34] He loved young people. He could talk to them. He could get responses out of them, and he was never a sort of a stiff, academic kind of dean, the sort of people you read about and hear about in the old days. Sort of going along. Riding the waves. But in a nice pleasant way. And-- and did very well. Whether or not under-- under later conditions, more modern conditions he would have done as well, I-- I just don't know. His own academic field was mathematics, so he had that kind of a-- of training. And-- And he could handle the mechanics of the office quite well. But I don't know what the-- what particular adjective I might use to characterize his sort of, I would say, was a soft approach [chuckles] to the problem-- [crosstalk]
WC: [00:38:56] [unintelligible]
LW: [00:38:56] Yes [both laugh] Now, John Williams, who was with us a relatively short number of years, came out of a Quaker background but-- and the more conservative part of Quakerism. And he had a much stronger notion of what a church-related college ought to be in terms of the general moral level of student life and behavior. And he was not one to-- to make compromises for that position. And he-- he felt that-- that a church-related college, in its total programs, should reflect the word "church" in, I mean, in its broadest sense. That the Christian values as delineated by-- pretty much by conservative denominations should-- should rule and should dictate the rules of academic life.
LW: [00:40:14] Well, in the years in which he was dean, see, things were moving pretty fast and in other directions. And he found it-- he found himself in a rather untenable position with both faculty and student body. Because of this rather strongly-held position of toeing the line in terms of-- of maintaining and making visible on campus the so-called Christian values, however they are described. And he would-- he would have described them with rather strict, fundamentalist terms.
[00:41:02] Fred Brown was quite different. He came from a position of being associate dean at a college in Minnesota. And came to the deanship here with a strong emphasis on academic excellence, I think. He was a Ph.D. from the University of Pennsylvania. And had a strong sense of the academic program and academic excellence and-- and tried hard to instill that, I think, in much that he did while he was dean here. And that's-- in that sense I think. I think, Fred Brown-- I didn't always agree with his positions. But on the whole, I think he was good for the institution at the time that he came to us. And he-- he reminded us all from time to time that-- that academic excellence was the thing to be sought after. And he-- he encouraged, I'm sure, he encouraged faculty people to keep up in their disciplines, and I know he encouraged several who had not finished their doctorates to go on and finish. So his academic emphasis, I think, was all for the good.
WC: [00:42:31] Do you-- do you-- it always seemed to me amazing that he could form, apparently, the solid working relationship with Briscoe that he did because I thought there was a great deal of ideological incompatibility there.
LW: [00:42:47] Yes, I would agree with that. Because, well, Dr. Briscoe's emphasis, I think, again, was on developing the college in a physical kind of sense. He-- he wanted to, of course, increase the endowment. He wanted to attract major gifts to the college for the purpose of expanding materially the buildings and so on and to undergird some of the programs. And I'm sure, although I was out of it by that time, I'm sure that he and Dr. Brown did not always see eye-to eye on the direction in which money should be spent. And yet, being quite different in personalities, they seemed to hit it off pretty well as far as administering the-- the college at the top level.
WC: [00:43:56] Do you think that John Williams realized the discontent that he created?
LW: [00:44:05] I-- I have the feeling that he realized it, and I'm not sure that he regretted having created it. I've got to-- I've got to say that I admire John. I do not agree with his theological position, but I admired his tenacity and sticking with it. There is something almost noble in the way he stood up to-- to criticism. Because he, you know, he was-- he was committed to his set of Christian interpretations. He was committed to it wholeheartedly, and he wasn't going to back down from it. He got to the point where he was convinced he couldn't continue in the institution because of that commitment. And because of the-- a failure to-- to win the college over to an equal acceptance of that set of interpretations.
WC: [00:45:11] He hired the wrong people. [laughs]
LW: [00:45:14] Yes.[laughs] Yes. He seemed to think he was hiring the right people.
WC: [00:45:19] And, in a way, he did often hire the right people, as far as their expertise was concerned, but he hired the wrong people-- [laughs]
LW: [00:45:29] That's right.
WC: [00:45:30] To-- if he was looking for support.
LW: [00:45:31] That's right. That's right. And so he reached a position where it was untenable for him. And he just had to move on. This is his decision again. But-- but, again, he knew he'd reached the limit.
WC: [00:45:45] Do you think that John Williams left the institution stronger in his area than when he came, or did he weaken it?
LW: [00:45:56] Well, I hate to say either either strengthen or weaken it. I felt that-- that he recognized his own failure in attempting to bring the college to the position that he would have liked to have it. And sort of throwing up his hands in despair that nothing can be done for this institution. Now, when he said nothing could be done for this institution, he meant in this-- in this sort of moral way-- moral, Christian-- moral way of doing it. There were those in the college, of course, who-- who who agreed with him.
LW: [00:46:42] I must say, I didn't really. I didn't. I don't think there were too many on the faculty who agreed with him in these matters or in other parts of the administration. But there were among the students those, of course, college now grown to eight or nine hundred students and you're bound to have some who would find his point of view meaningful and helpful, but to the-- speaking in terms of the total situation, I don't think he left it any stronger.
LW: [00:47:19] I wouldn't say tha--t that he actually weakened it because those who might have agreed with hi, and who might have wanted, along with John Williams, to see the college take a more narrow approach to the whole Christian and moral position, were not vocal or not organized to the point of doing much about it or carrying on that kind of approach.
WC: [00:48:05] Okay, we've talked a bit about presidents and deans. What about students? As you look back into the 1950s, you certainly-- from your own times of the 1970s-- and you keep pretty much abreast of things here in the '80s, too-- what kind of changes do you-- have you seen in this period of time?
LW: [00:48:28] Well [laughs] as I said earlier on, when I came to the institution in '54, we were serving fairly local area students. For the main, came out of small Iowa towns, came from the farms. They were largely seeking some sort of upward mobility in society, and the easiest thing, particularly for the young ladies that came to us, was to prepare for teaching. And in those early years, we were primarily a teacher training-- had a teacher training program. And we sent good teachers out into a lot of the schools, at all levels, all through northwest Iowa and a few elsewhere. But the students didn't see too much beyond this first upward mobility step. They could achieve one step up in the social scale. That was sufficient. Students did not have, in my opinion, any great vision. Or any great curiosity about the wide, wide world out there. Did you come to college, within the-- within the framework of rural Iowa, just to come to college was enough.
LW: [00:50:02] To get a vision beyond that was not part of their-- their curiosity. And it was pretty hard in those days to-- to get a spark of intellectual adventure into the-- into the students. Now. I think that has changed. Even the students who today still come out of those small high schools and small towns, I think. Somewhat due to the growth of our media, of the television, they may watch a lot of trash. But from time to time, they also become acquainted with what's happening in other parts of the world. While they're twisting the dials, occasionally come across something that leads them to think that there are other things in the world, and the bringing of students from other parts of the United States and from other countries and continents in the world, help to broaden their vision. So, I have seen, over the years, a broadening of the-- of the vision of students and certainly in these present days, when students are greatly attracted by what's our favorite word now? Entrepreneurship.
WC: [00:51:29] [chuckles]
LW: [00:51:29] But what I call the corporate world-- the world of-- of industry and corporation management and technology and communication, all of this modern world has burst upon them and has reached even into the small towns of America, wherever they are. So I think students today do come with a little greater concern about the broad world and perhaps their own future in it. Because the students I talk to, my farm friends, and none of their children want to go on the farm. They don't want to go back to farming, don't want to stay in farming, and they're looking for other-- and this forces them to consider a little more what's-- what will be the availability of other types of vocations.
WC: [00:52:29] But they're interested do you think-- very interested in the business [unintelligible] or vocation/career aspect of education and they're less interested in this-- in the humanities and-
LW: [00:52:42] Oh, I think that's true. I think that's true. But I don't think that's the fault of the college or any-- any other college like ours. I-- I think it's the trend of the times. It's the way America is going. We're technologically-oriented, all of us, and behind the technology is the business of supporting that technology. The whole area of communications, of computerization. And all of this is just paramount in everybody's thinking these days. And these young people, as they come up, they learn how to operate computers when they're down in the grades these days. My granddaughter was operating a computer [unintelligible] in the third grade, you know, and this is a way of life. And it's this technological impact upon modern life that-- that forces the humanities and the-- and there's no time for humanities. The humanities take time. You've got to learn the art of meditation. I don't mean transcendental meditation. I mean real honest-to-goodness sitting down and giving yourself time to think through what you're reading. Read the right things, and come to grips with ideas and question. But at least come to grips with them and know that the great ideas have been-- are older than just the last 50 years, which is ancient to most students. But the great ideas, you know, came out of Greece and Rome and-- and France and England and these places. Out of India and China and so on. That's the tragic thing, that there is no search for great ideas.
WC: [00:54:43] So, we're training technicians.
LW: [00:54:44] We're training technicians. That's right.
WC: [00:54:46] Not really educated people.
LW: [00:54:48] We're training schools; we are not collegiate institutions in the finest sense of the word.
WC: [00:54:53] Which is a very dangerous sign because it's a great loss for humanity-- [crosstalk].
LW: [00:54:57] It is. It is.
WC: [00:54:57] --and humaneness.
LW: [00:54:58] That's right.
WC: [00:55:00] I mean, how can we really create a humane civilization or [unintelligible] for the future, you know? Do you see a difference in the, again, of the students of the '50s to, say, today? I mean, when I came in in the '50s, I felt, what good people and I didn't see any drug problem. I didn't really see much alcoholism. But now, we have enormous drug problems including a problem with alcohol. There was no alcohol on-- on campus and now they-- they scream about the accessib-- availability of alcohol.
LW: [00:55:44] Well, there was always-- even when-- when I came, and even in-- in the '50s there was a bit of an alcohol problem. You could find it. It was always there, in the background. It wasn't as open and evident as it later became. And, again, this is the opening up more-- of more freedom of that kind in our society. And these things are so pervasive, the whole drug bit, the alcohol bit and so on, these are such pervasive things they just-- they just seep out from their centers, out into the farthest corners of-- of American life. And it's-- it's a tremendous danger, and it's gotten to the point where it's almost beyond control. Look at the struggle that our nation is having with this drug problem.
LW: [00:56:42] And there's so much money involved in these things. It's almost impossible to control and-- and-- and even to try to educate people with some hope of an intelligent response.
LW: [00:56:57] Educate young people to the dangers of drugs and alcohol. It doesn't get too far. Because of the power of this pervasive evil that-- that is affecting our society infecting-- and if you don't have a background of-- of intelligence and the ability to make judgments, moral judgments. You see philosophy that's been dropped out of many of the liberal arts programs. Philosophy is no longer there. If it's there, it's a very peripheral kind of presentation in ethics. And I'm-- I'm not speaking now in narrow religious terms. I speak in the broad sense of what Socrates and Plato and Aristotle were talking about, when they talked about the good. What is the good, what is the beautiful, what is the true and so on. And we don't bring young people face-to-face with those ideas. And so they have no basis for making moral judgments about their own lives in modern years, and the peer pressure for these things is the great influencing agent. For the-- for the presence and the extent and the growth of these evils such as drugs and alcohol in our society.
WC: [00:58:40] So, a degree today really doesn't leave them with the ability to cope.
LW: [00:58:46] No.
WC: [00:58:46] To the extent--
LW: [00:58:48] No.
WC: [00:58:50] that earlier education--
LW: [00:58:52] Th-- the degree unfortunately, and I say this with great sadness, the degree is only a couple of letters that says you have been in school for six-- for 16 years. That's about it.
WC: [00:59:07] Mm-hmm. Les-- what-- Is there anything that you remember-- let me put it this way. What do you remember from your experience at Buena Vista the most fondly and the least?
LW: [00:59:32] [chuckles] Well, let's start out with the least. I could very well have done without those years in the '60s, during the years of student rebellion, student revolt. They were unpleasant times in many ways, and I'm sure educators everywhere who were in college, university, life during those years might say the same thing. We could very well have done without them. Oh, they may have brought a certain degree of-- of student activity to bear upon student life, brought about some change that were maybe good changes. But on the whole, that was an unpleasant time to be in it.
LW: [01:00:16] The things I remember most are--- are those good students that one always had in one's classes. Of course, in addition to being an administrator, I was always in the classroom 'till the very last couple of years. And I remember very fondly students who did well, were good students. You always had a preponderance of the-- of the mediocre, but you always had a few that came through, and you remember them fondly. You appreciated them, appreciated the way they did their work. And every once in a while, when I'm out someplace, someone will come up to me and said [sic], "Oh, I was in one of your classes," and I-- I always say, "Oh, were you and what grade did I give you?" and most of the time they can't remember. [laughs] I don't remember without going back to my classbooks. But-- but they-- they speak nicely and [laughs] then they say-- you know it was nice to be there. They-- they're the things that-- that an educator remembers with great fondness.
WC: [01:01:30] How do you see your own place in the college histor?
LW: [01:01:41] [laughs] A ver,y very small place but one that I appreciated very much. I appreciated all my years at Buena Vista. Buena Vista was good to me not in terms of any monetary reward, certainly, but in terms of providing me a place that, on the whole, was was pleasant to be, a chance to, at least, say what I wanted to say to students and to faculty from my administrative positions, to faculty and other administrators. I had the chance to do that and to have a little-- a little bit to do with, I guess, with the growth and progress of the school. I can't say that I made any major contributions but-- but the school did provide me with an, on the whole, a pleasant experience.
WC: [01:02:40] What-- what do you see [as] the most difficult problem ahead for Buena Vista?
LW: [01:02:45] Well, it's gotten to a point now where I-- a few years ago I would have said just staying alive, but [laughs] but due to the generosity of Mr. Siebens and others, it looks as though they're pretty well established. I would hope that Buena Vista would not succumb completely to the-- to the business corporation entrepreneur syndrome, in which it finds itself at the moment. I would hope, and I think I'm optimistic enough to believe, that colleges like Buena Vista will in the not- too-distant future revive an interest in the humanities and the liberal arts.
LW: [01:03:46] I think our world will be coming exhausted with this infernal emphasis upon technology and computerization and all the rest. I think people are getting to the point where they're beginning to realize the dangers of that kind of constant emphasis that controls life mechanically. We live by numbers. We all-- we all carry with us a score of numbers by which we are identified. Social Security number, personal telephone number, private number of our-- our automatic teller machine system, zip codes. I mean we're-- we live the life of numbers, and this depersonalizes life, and I think people eventually will come to the point where they say, enough is enough. We have been depersonalized as far as we can stand it, and we've got to-- to-- to reclaim the basics of our human nature, our human essence.
[01:05:04] And I would hope that the way through that reclamation will be through a fresh appreciation of-- of the arts. Of our writers and dramatists and poets and painters and philosophers and historians and the people who can reclaim the things that we have been in danger of losing. The world has gone through this before. We-- we've-- we've had renaissances from time to time [chuckles] in the world, after the world threw away its great heritage. But always there is a remnant and out of the remnant comes a fresh light with the sometimes-- merely a reinterpretation of a very old light. This is what happened in the Renaissance or when they-- when they rediscovered, even the Arab world, rediscovered the greatness of Plato and Aristotle and raised up their own philosophers [unintelligible] others. It's happened before, and I think it'll happen again.
WC: [01:06:24] Of course, the computer is obviously here to stay.
LW: [01:06:27] It's here to stay. No doubt about that. And in many ways, it's a great convenience. I'm not-- I don't want to detract completely from it. It's a great convenience, and it can do marvelous things. It can also get us into trouble because a computer is only as good as the people who operate it. And you feed it [crosstalk] in order to get a feedback.
WC: [01:06:50] It drowns you in information.
LW: [01:06:53] Yes, exactly. You can't-- there isn't even time to sort everything out. We are so inundated with that information, that we don't have time to sit back and sort it all out and put it into perspective. Where today are the great writers like Aristotle? Thomas Aquinas. And even in our own time, people like Will and Ariel Durant, who wrote the great story of civilization. This is a tremendous effort, as Aquinas did to-- to correlate all knowledge. And to bring it together and-- and look for patterns in life that are meaningful. And we need to get back to a little of that. We still need some great mind, great minds to-- to make the effort. Such as [Arnold J.] Toynbee. Now, Toynbee had his shortcomings as a-- as an historian, I'm sure but-- but he made that effort to-- to see a pattern and to correlate the events of history in such a way that they made sense.
WC: [01:08:13] Well, we turn out so much data today I-- even as you think of as simple a thing as writing the history of Buena Vista College. The first time I did it, I went around with pen and notebook and got my information. This time I-- the technology of the college has enabled the production of an unbelievable amount of memos and minutes. The Briscoe administration, I daresa,y has put out more information than all the others combined, perhaps triple the others combined.
LW: [01:08:48] And because the mechanics of doing it are much easier.
WC: [01:08:52] But you can't believe the problem that it creates.
LW: [01:08:54] Oh, yeah. [agreeing]
WC: [01:08:54] I started working on that computer, and I put it on these little discs, but I don't realize how much I've got in there until I run it off. And it's just almost impossible for a single person to try to put it together. [laughs]
LW: [01:09:08] That's right. That's right. Yeah.
WC: [01:09:12] Les, you don't-- do you remember who was really responsible for the idea behind the Order of the Arch? When I wrote the first volume, I credited it to Gordon Hermanson, and Halverson told me when he was here that he was the one. [chuckles]
LW: [01:09:31] Well, that's a question I can't really answer, Bill, I-- I don't know.
EW: [01:09:37] I think it was Halverson.
LW: [01:09:40] You think it was Halverson? Well, I would-- I would be inclined to think it was Halverson. But-- but maybe-- maybe he and and Hermanson worked so closely together at that point, that you know it just popped up between them. But I would give Halverson credit for it.
WC: [01:09:59] Do you have any idea when they-- each class used to give the college a gift?
LW: [01:10:06] Yeah.
WC: [01:10:07] But they don't do that anymore, do they?.
LW: [01:10:07] No, I don't think so
WC: [01:10:07] I wonder when that ended.
LW: [01:10:09] Oh, I think--
WC: [01:10:10] Were they still doing that when--
LW: [01:10:11] I think that-- I think that dropped out during that period of rebellion in the '60s, you know.
WC: [01:10:17] A lot of-- a lot of old traditions [crosstalk- LW: ' remarks are unintelligible] The smoking of the pipe-- peace pipe, that went out--
LW: [01:10:27] That went out, yeah.
EW: [01:10:27] They used to have the burning of the log at Christmastime.
LW: [01:10:31] Yeah, they used to have the log burning over at Swope Hall.
EW: [01:10:31] Phoebe Lafoy [unintelligible].
WC: [01:10:31] Yeah, well, they do have a little ceremony though, of some kind.
LW: [01:10:34] Well, we used to go out and sing in the cold weather around the Christmas tree, out in front of Dixon-Eilers. They lit the tree, and I can remember the music department people being out there to lead us in,Christmas carols and-- they don't do that, anymore.
WC: [01:10:50] There used to be a senior swing out.
LW: [01:10:51] Yes.
EW: [01:10:51] Right.
WC: [01:10:53] And--.
LW: [01:10:55] Most of the traditions of the old Buena Vista have gone by the board. Now, I don't know whether they're-- if in creating tradition, if they started anything, if it will become a tradition or not. I haven't seen anything.
WC: [01:11:08] We used to plant a tree every-- there was a tree planting ceremony.
LW: [01:11:15] About the--
EW: [01:11:15] Dr. Briscoe thought he was starting a tradition when we had the burning of the trees over at the--
LW: [01:11:21] Oh, the Twelfth Night.
WC: [01:11:21] Twelfth Night.
LW: [01:11:22] Yes, that's right. He wanted that.
EW: [01:11:22] They found out that it was too cold. They gave a prize, you know.
LW: [01:11:26] That only lasted a couple of years.
EW: [01:11:30] Only a few years, yes, mm-hmm.
LW: [01:11:31] Well, it was the wrong time of year. [laughs]
WC: [01:11:34] Edith, would you like to make some comments on--
LW: [01:11:43] Get it off your chest.
EW: [01:11:44] I can't think of anything.
WC: [01:11:44] [Laughs] Well, I thought I might ask you about the role of the Faculty Dames during the period that you were here. What kind of a role do you feel they played in their principal accomplishment?
EW: [01:11:56] I think the Faculty Dames played a very important role in those early days. That was a large organization, so large that we met over at the college rather than individual homes. And then we divided up into interest groups. They had a gourmet cooking group, a literary group that went in for studying of books, and then they had the needlework group, and a bridge group. And they would meet at different times, but there was always one time when they would meet monthly as a Faculty Dames group. People weren't as involved in the outside world then as they are now. I mean, women are so busy with-- more women in the work-a-day world than there were at that time, and with other interests also, and so it isn't as easy now to get the group together to-- in the same way as they did then. It was interesting, under the various women-- wives of the presidents, how are they reacted to these Faculty Dames, too.
EW: [01:13:00] Mrs. Fisher, Ruth Ann Fisher, was one who loved to entertain in her home, using the college students as the people to help her in the preparations. And when Marian Halverson came, she was a person who was very much interested in the-- what we call it today, the ERA, in the-- the liberated woman. And she was a person who taught, and so she taught for a while at the college and then outside of the college, and she was very busy in the outside world. And-- then the-- with the [unintelligible] Carmen is-- she's a real busy person and just a charming individual, who works very well with her husband in-- as the president. It's interesting to see the different roles played throughout the years. But I think as far as Faculty Dames go, it isn't at all what it had been long before. Although they do still serve in many capacities at the time of graduation and the like. We used to be called on almost a dozen times during the school year to serve in various capacities for teas and social occasions and the like.
WC: [01:14:14] Do think we've lost something in closeness?
EW: [01:14:19] Oh, decidedly yes, mm-hmm. We used to see a kind of a family spirit in the Dames. We don't see that, I don't think, anymore. It's just another organization that you go to because maybe you're supposed to.
WC: [01:14:33] Well, I have a feeling that's true of the whole faculty community, really, that we aren't close anymore. We're all doing our own thing, and there's not the comradeship there once was. In the early years I was here, in the '50s and even in the '60s, I felt that way. But now, I feel that entrepreneurship has captivated everyone, and everybody is pushin,g pushing, pushing. I don't know whether that's just me or-- I--
EW: [01:15:07] No, I think that's very true. uh-hh. Very. Uh-huh.
WC: [01:15:13] Which-- would you care to comment on if-- of the three first ladies you you mention, you want to comment a little more on the differences among them and their peculiar contributions to the college?
EW: [01:15:28] Well, I think Ruth Ann Fisher was very community-minded as far as social life is concerned. She was very wrapped up in the social life of the community. And as far as the-- in the home, I think they were great for people for sleeping very late in the morning. I hope this isn't for anything special, but, I mean, their day wouldn't start until around noon time because they were late sleepers, and Jack Fisher would often get over to the college around the noon time rather than early-- to start early, but then he would work 'till late at night. So, it was a different [kind] of schedule that he had.
[01:16:09] And then, Marian Halverson, she was wrapped up in her family, her three children, and then, as I say, in the outside world, and she was a very vociferous individual to the point where maybe some people didn't understand her outspoken spirit that she had. And now, I think Carmen is very well accepted in the community and is getting along very nicely. But they all have their individual points, and you can't compare one with the other, and each have made a real contribution in her role.
WC: [01:16:51] Do either of you have any concluding statements you would like to make? Something you'd like to say that I haven't brought up.
LW: [01:17:01] I don't think I have. I think I've said quite enough, really, in talking about the college. I-- I feel free to criticize some of the direction in which the college has moved, and I think, to be fair, I think that's largely because I was raised in a different kind of collegiate atmosphere and-- and I carry that along with me all the time. And I always had hoped that--that the strong liberal arts and humanistic approach of college education would continue to be a major characteristic of higher education in this countr,y and it saddens me to see that that's slipping away.
LW: [01:17:57] There are pockets, however, of course to be found in the big universities that can afford these departments. [chuckles] But in the smaller colleges it's-- it's simply accommodation to what's happening in-- in society and in our culture generally, and I'm well-- Buena Vista is pretty well established. It's going to go on for a long time.
EW: [01:18:21] Yes, thinking of the small institutions where we got together as families because we were small. But now, for the size of the institution, it isn't the same, and this is true in all the institutions of higher learning where the mem-- where the student population has increased so much. And the faculty has increased, so you don't have that same coziness you had before.
LW: [01:18:43] It's one of the things that certainly you will deal with when in-- in the history of the college in these more modern times is this proliferation of off campus programs and courses and and classes. I don't know what the accrediting organizations have to say about this kind of thing. I've not seen their reports in recent years. I I must confess I had some doubts about the validity of that kind of operation. The--. And yet there are more students enrolled in the off campus programs than-- than the on campus program.
WC: [01:19:29] Certainly a lot more graduates [laughs].
LW: [01:19:31] And the-- the number of graduates but-- see my problem is does this represent college education at its best. You you pick up teachers for the programs wherever you can find them here and there. I'm not sure what their-- what their adequacy is for the job they're called upon to do.
LW: [01:19:56] I'm sure in many instances, they're very fine people, very well educated, but where is the access to-- to libraries? A good library. Where is their access to-- to scientific equipment, for example and this kind of thing. There is a great limitation on what you can do on these-- on these far-out satellites-- satellite campuses. What you're able to do is, it's quite limited. And I question the total academic standing of that kind of an operation. That's one thing I find very difficult to-- to come to grips with, in my own thinking.
WC: [01:20:50] Well that may be a cause for concern because North Central will be coming around here in another year.
LW: [01:20:56] I want-- I don't know what North Central's attitude is toward that. I would think they'd be very concerned.
WC: [01:21:01] Well NCATE [National Council for Accreditation of Teacher Education] wasn't all that enthusiastic when we tried to get the Council Bluffs center accreditated [sic] accredited by NCATE. And NCATE wasn't going to give any of us accreditation so we separated the two.
LW: [01:21:21] Yeah. I can understand that.
WC: [01:21:23] And my understanding is that North Central's taking a tougher stance now.
LW: [01:21:30] Well, well they might. Well they might. But that is a concern of mine in the total picture of the college because we, you know, we advertise ourselves as being a college of what fifteen hundred, two thousand, whatever it is. But you see when you have half of that number being in the of- campus satellite programs, then you begin to question whether-- whether this is a-- whether these are justified as proper collegiate education centers.
WC: [01:22:08] I think I'm well-- got a little tape left, but you have anything any other comment you'd like to make? Either one of you?
LW: [01:22:19] Well, I don't think I have. Well, I think I've pretty well covered my views and situation.
WC: [01:22:29] Well, I want to thank you very much. This is William H. Cumberland signing off.
Original Format
audio cassette
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1:22:36
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80 kbps