"Fred Brown (former Buena Vista College provost) interview, conducted by William H. Cumberland"

"Fred Brown (former Buena Vista College provost) interview, conducted by William H. Cumberland"

"Buena Vista College -- Oral histories"

Oral histories--Iowa--Storm Lake

Brown, Fred D., Dr.

College administrators--Iowa--Storm Lake

Buena Vista University

1987

audio/mpeg

English

Sound

http://bvuarchives.bvu.edu/Audio/OralHistories/FredBrown.mp3

"William H. "Bill" Cumberland"

Fred Brown

WC=William Cumberland
FB=Fred Brown

WC: [00:00:00] Being properly it happens. This is William Cumberland. I'm conducting an or-- oral interview with Dr. Fred Brown, Provost at Buena Vista College and president-elect at Doane College. And this interview will consist of questions related to his 14 years as dean and provost at Buena Vista.

WC: [00:00:25] First question to start off here Fred is-- why do you consider the history of the college important? Is it important? [crosstalk and laughter]

WC: [00:00:43] I sometimes wonder-- [crosstalk and laughter]

FB: [00:00:44] As a historian you are going to ask that question -- [crosstalk and laughter]

FB: [00:00:48] The past is prologue, you know that -- [crosstalk and laughter]

FB: [00:00:52] This is right on the archives, though. [crosstalk and laughter]

FB: [00:00:54] --No, I think it is important. I think it is more important for the faculty and administration, probably, than for the students who never read the thing and get tidbits from it. But I really think that a good faculty member, who decides to stay, will pick up your book to get a little sense of where it came from. It is in fact your heritage, your legacy. To understand where we are for the future, to understand how far we came. Bill, you would find this interesting.

FB: [00:01:28] I was cleaning house yesterday. That's Paul Shafer's report, '74-'75. Paul, look how many students we have. 716 full-time regular and this year you're going out and buying houses because we think we're going to have an overflow. But to understand the struggle we went through for enrollments, which you lived through more than I did because I came at kind of at the bottom of--

WC: [00:01:56] When I came here we were 450-- [laughter]

FB: [00:01:57] And then we went up to 9-ish and then back down to 6-some-- something. Second year I'm here we had 716. My feeling is that your history puts a perspective on what it means to be distinctive. Where we-- the gains that we have made. Because the new people see the product. And they think it must have been here. What do they know? New student, new faculty. And they want to concern themselves with all the imperfections as they currently are. And there are imperfections obviously, and they don't understand what you went through to build and lay on a platter for them. And that was the faculty that, you know, that the senior faculty was part of that.

WC: [00:02:53] I've had people who came here tell me that they read the history--

FB: [00:02:58] Uh-hmm.

WC: [00:02:58] --prior to the interview. [lauhgs]

FB: [00:02:59] Some do.

WC: [00:03:01] Did you ever notice the sign out there, "Education for service" -- Do you think --

FB: [00:03:11] You noticed I put that in my speeches --.

WC: [00:03:15] [laughter] That had some meaning for you when you came.

FB: [00:03:18] Yes, and it has ever since. I consider us a comprehensive college. A college that-- that has always had career directions as well as liberal education. Now, education for service sums it up, doesn't it? We're not turning out just scholars who can serve as well, but we're turning out all kinds of people who will contribute. I like that slogan.

WC: [00:03:43] But now I want to move into-- some personal remarks-- A lot of times we lament losing good teachers as they decide to become administrators. [laughter] It's kind of a funeral march [laughter] in some way. What made you-- decide-- Really, I have two questions I think I can ask here. What made you decide to move from teaching into administration, and then, finally, what attracted you to-- Buena Vista College?

FB: [00:04:23] The decision was made slowly, much like we do with our associate deans. I-- I had a chance to practice as an assistant dean, and I didn't know at first which I liked better. I think being able to move a college in a certain set of directions is harder for a faculty member because they have to do it through committee. They have to do it through a [sic] elaborate governance process. As a dean, you have a little more direct handle on finances and on opportunities to work with a collective faculty to go a direction that you think is appropriate and the faculty seems to agree is appropriate.

FB: [00:05:15] And when I got-- I got the feeling that if I was going to make a contribution to the life of a total college, you couldn't do it. That's-- that's not to demean the role of a professor. Quite the contrary. They're still the heart of an institution. But their principal chore is their students and only incidentally do they have to put up with these committees and try to help govern the institution. So 24 hours a day I'm thinking about where we're going with the college.

FB: [00:05:47] You're thinking about how to-- where is American history going or where is the frontier going in your-- your frontier class or your foreign policy class, which is what you ought to be thinking about and the articles you're writing. I came here because, frankly, I wasn't going to be the dean or provost at Gustavus. (NOTE: Gustavus Adolphus College in St. Peter, Minnesota) I wasn't Swedish, and I wasn't Lutheran.

FB: [00:06:17] And that seemed to be their preference in administration. You either stay in the classroom after having my little experience as assistant dean for three years or leave. What I found here was a golden opportunity. You were in on the interview. I mean I was-- Janet and I drove back and said, this place is ready. It's got quality people. It's got stable finances. Pretty campus and a lake. All it takes is energy, you know, a few good ideas.

FB: [00:06:51] And Storm Lake is a wonderful community. I've lived here, Bill, longer [than] any place I've lived in my life. My folks-- if I have a home, it's as much Storm Lake as any place I've ever been.

WC: [00:07:08] There have been times that you regretted-- [laughter] moving totally into administration? Well, you couldn't have helped to have days that you-- [laughter] regretted it. [laughter].

FB: [00:07:22] The regrets, I think what you find, Bill, is that the rewards are delayed. When I was teaching full time and working with students and they come to the house for dinner and they come in your office or go to coffee and have 'em in class-- I still have students who are my dear friends, who are left over from my teaching days, who come to my children's weddings. These are people that have become lifelong friends with our family.

FB: [00:07:52] In administration, you always are faced with another issue. So even when you think you've got something accomplished you don't have any time to-- to savor. You gotta turn right around and solve the next problem. And the rewards are delayed. Like, you give a good lecture and students like it. You can see the response in their faces and the questions they ask and the comments they make. At the end of term, you get a response. You can see the growth they've made. It may be two, three, four years for a project that we're working on really gets put to bed. And then, everybody's on to the next project. So I would say that's the regret. I mean, that's where you have to change your reward system. [laughter] You have to take the rewards in a delayed manner.

WC: [00:08:51] My-- my questions are all somewhat related. They lead from one to the other. And so part of the next question has perhaps been answered. What did you find when you came? You kind of suggested an answer here, but essentially what's the difference between 1973 and 1987 at Buena Vista College? And what do you consider, say, your two, three, or four most significant accomplishments?

FB: [00:09:23] The major difference is that the college was-- had potential, now we have actualized some of that potential. We have-- oh, physically, we've changed the campus, but I think we have gained the appropriate recognition. The light has come out from under a bushel basket. The world can see that there's quality education here and it's attracting regional and some national attention. We've gone from being poorly known to known, not maybe well-known, but known. If I contributed to anything, and I obviously think I have-- one is I think that I inherited good people, that Dean Williams left in the slots.

FB: [00:10:23] You were here before he was, but in addition to yourself, there were people like Poff and Adkins and Peck and Hornecker and Dykema and these people were here when I came. I think I've helped them grow. And I helped bring other people like the Madsens, Whitlatch, Tinsley, Schweller, Traylor, people that we've hired--Lampe--that have been another good set of colleagues to join the quality colleagues that were already here. So, people, I think is a contribution. Now, anybody could have done that, I'm sure. But I think we had an eye for the kind of people who would contribute down the road.

FB: [00:11:09] Second is, I think, we have focused on some programs that other schools were slow to focus on and probably the most obvious is-- is mass communications and telecommunications. What we did in special ed, we did in social work. We approved the business program. We have other programs on the board that are-- that are doing very well to attract a new clientele to the college. So--

FB: [00:11:40] And I think the third thing would be to fight and get the funds needed to improve salaries, to improve equipment. I think probably my most proudest [sic] moment was when we could truly say that we were competitive in the state of Iowa in this region in salaries. Maybe not the best paid, but we're competitive, and we weren't when I came. And all I have to do is look at those figures now, and I see that Doane is not. And that's-- you know, I have to go do it again because that's-- if you don't pay quality people, either they'll leave, or they'll never come in the first place, and you will have, in a sense, exploited the ones who stay because of loyalty. You're just taking advantage of their loyalty and that's unfair.

WC: [00:12:41] 'K-- Fred, is there anything that you-- as you stop and think that you might have done or wished you could have done that you didn't get done?

FB: [00:12:53] Uh-hmm. I wanted--and I still think you'll get it--to improve the liberal education side of the institution, the humanities, specifically. The inability to put down that-- that experience for freshmen and sophomores--which I kept referring to as common knowledge--that all students share, the generic students--those who start as freshmen--which share in a certain set of experiences, like our Freshman Core but-- but more elaborate, that we talked about. And we just didn't have the troops, we just didn't have enough bodies to make that work. I regret that, because, you see, I think that would really embed a sense of history, of philosophy and literature. I'm afraid our students don't all get that, and I wanted that so badly.

FB: [00:13:46] The second thing is coming, but we have-- it was on a timetable. I just won't get to see it, and that is to get you the money to do the things that some of the other areas of the college have had the money to do. To get you the endowment in the liberal arts side of the college. And I think that'll happen. I just won't be here to see it, but I really think it's important that you can have your own money to do something special with, to do the kinds of quality things that you guys know what you want to do.

WC: [00:14:24] Do you think our case studies have been well received and-- that-- it seemed to me that some of the case studies pointed that out.

FB: [00:14:32] There's two things about them. One is that I think they've accurately depicted a needs list. I don't think they've created quite that focus that can be a shared vision. Sometimes even inside the school and certainly not between schools. They tend to be more like laundry lists, that we'd like to do this, this, this, and we need this, this, and this. The next step is really to come back and say, Where does it all lead? What's it all about, Alfie? Where is it going? But that's logical. The first thing that you do is you say well we need this, we need that, we did that. And I-- I am encouraged by-- by the enthusiasm, you know, kind of reluctant enthusiasm. But it is interesting that once people kind of got into it a little bit, that they did share with each other, more than they even thought they were prepared to do. They thought it was going to be an "exercise", but they actually got into it a little bit.

WC: [00:15:45] I thought we were quite successful, overall. I-- I wrote it, but I went in, and I took my recorder and everybody participated very well. And then I took what they said and put it together. They were glad to have me do that.

FB: [00:16:03] Well, and you wrote it very well. Yours-- yours has more vision than anybody else's. I don't say that because you're sitting there. It's just true.

WC: [00:16:13] I'm going to move into some things that may seem a little more personal [laughter] at-- at times. You worked almost the entire period under Briscoe but you did have some relationship with Halverson.

FB: [00:16:30] Uh-hmm.

WC: [00:16:30] Will you want to kind of analyze the two or compare these two men who are really very important in the history of Buena Vista College.

FB: [00:16:42] Please understand that I'm trying to be candid with you, the historian, OK? I think-- President Halverson was that he had accomplished what he set to accomplish. He did not have a vision on the future. His vision was absorbed in the creation of physical plant and a certain amount of survival when the-- when the drop started, to keep things going. But he did get that done. He created a viable modern college plan. And he wo-- through his dean, had hired some other talented people, and he had stabilized, through Charlie Zalesky, the finances of the college.

FB: [00:17:40] Keith is-- one of the most curious presences I've ever run across. He has a knack for the unusual, the unusual thought, the unusual program, the unusual banquet. I mean, he has a knack for being a little bit different than almost anybody else would be. What he does, for me, I don't know about the other V.P.s, but, for me, is-- I mean, all-- you can't sit still. There's no maintenance. Can't say, "Well we've got everything together, let's just relax." You never can relax. He's always probing and not being an act of omission. He does know what he's doing exactly there. But by saying, "Well, what about this, what about that? Where are we going? How come we're going there?" You constantly are forced to think through very carefully what you're trying to do.

FB: [00:18:47] The other thing is that he has a way. I mean, he did raise an 18 million dollar gift. He has-- he has added grace and style, he and Carmen. That the look of that Forum would never-- it would never look like that if he had [unintelligible] He's the one that says the architect is not going to get it done. I'm going to go to New York and get these inter-- interior design experts who've done many college unions. They know what's going to look good. They're going to get the right carpeting, they're going to get the right tile, they're going to get the right fixtures, they're going to get the right wall coverings, and get the right chairs, and it's going to be good. Somebody else would have gone to Omaha or something, you know, and get typical college furniture, you know. He's done more work that way. And he has taught me, and, I think, taught the college, you know, first class, go first class.

WC: [00:19:52] Apparently he persuaded the board of that because I think the-- as I watched him, and I sat in a board meeting or two, he seems to have the board very much in-- in his hand, so to speak. And I think the attitude, as I have notedd the relationship between the board and Halverson and the board and Briscoe is an entirely different attitude.

FB: [00:20:19] Well, Wendell had to fight the board. He had old Pierce and those guys on there who thought they were going to run the college. Wendell [Halverson] set the stage for Keith. He started phasing the board down from meeting every month, meeting a few times a year, and Keith, all he had to do was phasing down a little more. Get out of the management of the college. Either hire-- either fire the president or hire the president, but don't try to tell a president what to do.

FB: [00:20:51] Set general policy, contribute to the life of the institution by your gifts and your best ideas, but don't try to decide if the plumber did the right job in Swope Hall. And that's what-- before Charlie Zalesky and Wendell could get-- get them out. They were doing that. They were talking to the plumbers.

WC: [00:21:12] Is that because they were so local and thought so much in local--

FB: [00:21:16] And they had kept the dang thing alive through bad times by, just, almost a physical presence. I just [unintelligible], Bill, I mean your history explains it. I mean they just-- they almost had to just physically pay the checks at the end of the month. And personally do it. What Keith has done is made the board a true board and that is that they are there to sustain the college in the highest sense of the word but not to manage the college. I give some credit to Wendell because he fought that and fought that and fought that, and he just set the stage for Keith to come in. And-- and of course Keith is a very clever and and rather dominating personality, but he understood his role was first to manage the board so the board didn't manage him.

WC: [00:22:15] I-- What do you think of this? I tend to feel that Halverson's first five years were quite successful, and then as time went on, he lost some of his energy--

FB: [00:22:29] Uh-hmm.

WC: [00:22:29] And philosophically he tended to stagnate. There was a certain amount of inertia--

FB: [00:22:38] Uh-hmm.

WC: [00:22:38] That seemed to come over him. He comes out of a little different background, of course, whereas Briscoe is a doer and an activist.

FB: [00:22:48] Uh-hmm. Yes, I don't think Wendell had a second vision. Once you've got the buildings built, I don't think he knew what to do, you know. And you and I could sit here and say, Well, he should have done this-- and what about that? I don't think-- I mean, he did-- he did-- it wasn't there. He didn't see-- he didn't believe. Let's put it this way. You looked at me sideways the first time I came to this college and I started talking about quality and community. Every speech I ever gave I had those two words in there somewhere. And Keith started how we were going to be America's next great college, and everybody snickered, right? [mumbling] You told me, personally, "We're a little college in northwest Iowa primarily serving students in this part of the country. And we do a nice job of it, but that's about all we are." You told me that.

WC: [00:23:40] [laughs]

FB: [00:23:41] Well, that isn't what we are-- now--is it?

WC: [00:23:44] But that's what we were when I told you that. You were true. You weren't lying. But, see, Halverson never believed you could be anything else. He was happy to be that. That said that the-- the college was prosperous. I mean it was relatively stable, and Briscoe and I believe that it's not. We just-- Hell, I didn't want to work-- I worked at a college that was a better college than this one. I wasn't going to settle for less. I wasn't going to go back and have them snicker up north and say, "You know Brown went down there, and we lost him in the Black Lagoon down there-- Storm Lake. I mean we haven't seen hide nor hair of him since." Well, they have heard of us now.

FB: [00:24:21] They are amazed at what's happened. We are stealing students that they, too, want to get. And they're saying, "Where'd they come from? Eighteen million dollars. I can't believe that!" Our endowment is bigger than theirs. And they find that incredible. And I find it-- Well, what'd you hire us for? That's what you hired us to do. Of course, we did that. I don't find it incredible. I find it rather exceptional that it fell into place. But that's what you hired Brown to do.

WC: [00:24:57] Now do you-- people used to say of Halverson that he was arrogant and that certain intellectual arrogance. Of Briscoe, they say he tends to be ruthless.

FB: [00:25:16] Uh-huh.

WC: [00:25:16] Now do you have any-- care to [laughter] comment on-- on that? That's-- we've talked about positive attributes but that's a characteristic that one has to think about also when you analyze the total human being.

FB: [00:25:33] I-- I wasn't with Wendell long enough to know if he was arrogant or not. I think he had a certain-- pomposity, perhaps, is the word about him. He was pompous, a bit of an ass, I suspect. You got know him better than I knew him, and I think probably, boring, after a while. I mean, I don't think he had very many new thoughts, but I don't know that, for sure.

FB: [00:26:05] Interestingly enough, Bill, the guy who's cut more throats around here is not Keith Briscoe, it's FB: . Who's fired all these people, who didn't give them tenure. Who got Reggie? It wasn't Keith got Reggie? I got him. A year ago! It just popped up now that nobody knew about it. I mean, you know, I thought all the students knew he was on his last leg.

FB: [00:26:29] You know, I'm the one who got rid of Wayne Holland and Vermeer and these birds. Not Keith Briscoe, but Keith has the reputation, you know, of being a top (tough?) manager, of being hard on people, and I think he got that-- he gets that as much from his handling, probably of student affairs and his conversations with some faculty, but more than anything else because he's been hard on student affairs. He thinks he knows something about it, and they don't meet all his expectations. He's never really gotten on a faculty member's individual case.

FB: [00:27:13] Oh, he may make some comments, but who's the guy that goes down and dirty?

[00:27:18] You've worked with me. I'm the one that gives them tenure or not. Not Keith Briscoe, but he does make certain demands on people particularly in administration. In particular-- I mean, you know, here's-- here's a case in point. You may remember this pretty well. We hired John Klockentager, who was working for a Chicago-based outfit at the time. Then he went to [unintelligible]. The old whiner outfit. And he came in and said. "Here's what you gotta do for Admissions." And one of our most lovable people here, Tom Daniels, refused to accept that system. He said, "I don't want to do that. I don't like that. That's not the way we like to run Admissions around here." And Keith said, "Tom that system will work. We've got to do it. He says, "I don't want to do it."

FB: [00:28:22] Keith said, "Well, [unintelligible]" said, "well, I'll see ya." He brings Kent in who had been working with Klockentager and Kent took over. And immediately we went from two hundred some freshmen to 270, 280, 2--. We got up to 285 was I think our highest and then back down to 270. But then we got into another lull there. And the same thing happened again. Brought John Klockentager back, now he's in Denver. Said what's wrong with the system, you told us. [unintelligible] ended up hiring him because it was cheaper than hiring him to be a consultant. And Kent says, "I can't do it anymore. I don't want to do it anymore. I've lost it. I don't feel comfortable." So, he leaves. Now some people would say, you see, he's ruthless. The other thing he gets that reputation is that he likes to bark.

[00:29:11] He's very Chinese or Jewish or something, I don't know. And he-- if he thinks he's got a deal, he likes to sweeten it just a little bit.

[00:29:23] So people downtown sometimes think that Briscoe is always out for the edge, and he kind of is. If I-- if I criticize him in anything, sometimes, that he won't leave a deal. Make a nice deal and leave alone for a bit. He's always looking for screwing it just a little tighter. You know, squeeze a little more, a better deal. I think even if he gets it done, he sometimes leaves behind a residue of resentment because he-- he didn't just go and do it straight forward. You know what I mean?

WC: [00:29:59] Yeah. I would-- would say that there are very certain enigmatic qualities about him. Oh, I see but one side, and then I see the side of the sentimentality and compassion that I-- I'm assuming is real.

FB: [00:30:16] It is. I've never seen a man spend more time. I mean, he had Leonard Martz' kids in his house after he was stricken, and that's genuine. He's not trying to show off. Keith doesn't show off when he goes to all those-- you know, when people get sick and he goes up. Maybe they don't like him. I don't know if they like him or don't like him. I feel very uncomfortable in that sort of thing. I went to see Leonard, but I didn't see him nearly enough. As I should have, as his boss, because, first place, I didn't feel that, I mean, I would just stand there and talk to him for a while. He didn't need to see me. He didn't want to see me. But Keith? He was faithful. He is. I learned that from him. I learned lots of things from that man. One of them is when people need help. It's surprising-- they look to a president. You know, it's like their preacher, you know, I was if-- I got sick, I don't want the damn preacher to show up necessarily. I'm sick! But many people, that's when they want him to come. Don't care if they ever see him again. When they're sick, where are they? I'm sick; they ought to be here, and Keith understood that. That if they never talked to him for days at the college, the minute they got sick, he went up there. And they-- I think they appreciate that. I think they do.

WC: [00:31:49] Well, those are-- those are things I sometimes have to think about. [laughter]

FB: [00:31:53] Yeah.

WC: [00:31:53] Because if you write a history you have to make the people who you're going to write about-- live as human beings. They can't have a wooden quality.

FB: [00:32:13] Uh-hmm.

WC: [00:32:13] But I think Briscoe's a very interesting person.

FB: [00:32:19] He's fascinating. Very eclectic. I can't figure him out. [laughter] [unintelligible] I don't even try.

WC: [00:32:31] You've been a very popular dean, I mean, the-- the concern about your leaving is genuine and the regret is-- is really genuine, in spite of those hard decisions that you-- that you mentioned. Do you have any comment? What has made you so successful and you've made, as you say, hard-- hard decisions. But your predecessor made hard decisions also. He was very much [laughter] despised.

FB: [00:33:14] I think if I have any skills, I think one of them lies in the people, generally. I try to figure out what the other person is interested in and wants and needs. I really do. I enjoy that. I find that fun. See, that's not a chore for me. The book is a chore for me. I always find exceptions to the rule, to stay right by the book. A dean taught-- taught me something. His name was Dan Ferber (sp). I worked for him at Gustavus. He said, "Our job is to say yes, not no. Sometimes, it's 'Yes, but we can't do it right now.' Sometimes it's 'yes, that's a good idea. But we're not going to do it, I'm sorry. It's a no.' But you don't start out on the premise that no, no, no. So somebody comes with an idea and you want to find a way to say yes, even when you sometimes can't. You try to recognize the validity of that idea." And that was a good lesson for me. A lesson I've tried to carry out, that faculty have good ideas, they have good needs, needs that are beneficial to them as faculty and to the college on the whole.

FB: [00:34:46] Find a way to say yes. Don't always think, Oh gosh that's a problem that's going to cause me a worry. That's going to cost us money. Find a way to say yes, then people respond.

FB: [00:35:00] They go 10 times farther than you expected them to. They will do more than you expect them to do. You know, by a little support-- Give you an example, Bill. The average dean would have told Danuta, No, twelve million times because she's not full-time, and she really doesn't have any right to, quote unquote, by the book, by the faculty manual, to get faculty travel monies or some other things that we support her. But she is known as a Slavic scholar in the United States. She reads papers, even at worldwide conferences. She has a budding reputation in this small group of scholars.

FB: [00:35:48] OK, now I'm Vermillion, you know, who are really into eastern European studies. So it's-- it's a good playground for her because it's not like American history when there's thousands of them out there. But it would have been very easy to say, "Danuta, I'm sorry. The money is only for full-time faculty. If you want to go those conferences you've got to come up with your own dollar. Yet I keep her on a short leash. I mean with-- with your wife, for example, she gets a contract, and I don't care if she's got three kids in German or if she's got 10 kids, she's going to get paid what she gets paid. She probably thinks it's too little, but she gets it. Danuta has to get six in the class or-- She's pro-rated just like summer school, because we have so few.

FB: [00:36:37] But she accepts that because I have nonetheless been positive on the other things that's part of her growth. So maybe if I won anybody's affections, it's because I have been able to find ways to say yes. And sometimes it probably hasn't been terribly productive for the college, but it's made that person more productive and more encouraged. And that's what I think deaning is all about. Saying yes, finding solutions rather than identifying problems.

WC: [00:37:15] Now I have a couple of other questions here. One is, what's the most exciting thing that has happened? And the other one is what decision or what event or what happening caused you the most pain?

FB: [00:37:36] Oh, I think most exciting has-- had to be-- You know, it's not just the gift. It was the total effort that people came together, to create the atmosphere, the goals, potential for the gfit. And then its culmination, where people have some money, where they can come and plan a building like that. And so I suppose at that moment, in the history, we knew we could leap forward then. We knew we could go. We had the money. That has to be the highlight because it was the launchpad for this distinctive quality, which is [unintelligible].

FB: [00:38:23] Most painful, there is no single one. There are[sic] a set of them. You see, everybody that I let go, I also hired, most of them. The rest of them were tenured [unintelligible], which means I didn't hire very well. I brought people in, I gave them all this encouragement [unintelligible] joining the faculty and be part of this team. And later on, I had to say, I don't think we want you around here. That hurts because it was my mistake inadvertently.

WC: [00:39:07] Inadvertently.

FB: [00:39:07] I mean, I thought I was right at the beginning and then a single example of that would be Ron McClay. I thought we needed some funny bunnies around here, some different spirit, a little' 60s, if you please. And I felt Ron let me down. I thought I let the college down that I didn't, A: maybe I shouldn't have hired him in the first place; B: I tenured him; and C: he violated the spirit of the institution by participating in activities that are clearly illegal and perhaps worse. I mean, you might even say immoral. But certainly illegal. And that I thought better of him. I trusted him, and that was my fallacy. I trusted the wrong horse. I put my money on the wrong horse. And it hurt. It hurt a lot. Because Briscoe had to clean up my mess.

FB: [00:40:22] And, you know, see, Hervey, I did the same thing. I felt badly about that but there was a set-- those types of decisions.

WC: [00:40:30] Both of those were in [laughter] social science. I'd have to say, but-- the Hervey incident hurt me more than anything else because from the standpoint that I had worked my whole life for a minority person. I'd introduced the Afro-American history, I'd written many reviews for Choice magazine, and I really felt quite an investment in that. That probably caused me more grief than anything else. And then I had the-- I had written a fine recommendation for McClay for tenure as well. [laughter]

FB: [00:41:13] And that hurts. But it's life, I mean, it's part of being [sic] our job and we do-- I don't know that we made a mistake. I think they made a mistake.

WC: [00:41:24] Well-- [crosstalk] they made--

FB: [00:41:25] We trusted their best qualities. We tried to ignore their questionable qualities, as we do with everybody, but their questionable qualities prevailed.

WC: [00:41:36] Some-- Sometimes my wife says I'm too trusting and too soft. I don't know whether I'm any more trusting and soft than she is, but--[laughter] when I make a mistake, that's what she says, sometimes.

FB: [00:41:51] Well, you understand those. We have some others, too, like that, and over the years, I mean, I had high hopes for-- I knew Wayne [unintelligible ?Holland?] was rough as a cob, but he could teach. He could teach.

WC: [00:42:10] He did know a lot about accounting, but he was a horrible person to get along to along with.

FB: [00:42:19] He was a manipulator. He was a bully.

WC: [00:42:24] Yeah. He had no-- No respect for anyone else. Well, of course, there are always painful decisions, and I would predict you'll have [laughter] some more.

FB: [00:42:40] Uh-hmm. I think, in the-- on-- on-- back on the positive side. When I look at the energy that's here, which I think the-- was actually produced again, because we could show him energy. But which has been galvanized, again, by the gift itself. Now we have a whole new set of expectations. I mean, you wouldn't have imagined, would you, even when I came, that this was going to be the college. I don't think you could.

WC: [00:43:21] No, I don't think anyone could.

FB: [00:43:23] And now you get to finish your career, a very outstanding career at an institution worthy of you. When you were better than this college, you were a premier scholar-teacher laboring in a rather poor vineyard. Now the vineyard is upgraded to the quality of your educational service. And I think that is a joy to behold. [Recording stops]

WC: [00:43:54] [Recording begins] Now I think it's OK.

FB: [00:43:59] I really believe that, Bill. You and and several other senior professors were underpaid. You still [unintelligible] probably but you certainly were-- Nobody-- You couldn't see a vision of excellence. You could see maintenance, you could see that you were going to get a paycheck. You were going to have some students. You'd have an office. You know, the bills would be paid.

FB: [00:44:33] But now I think everybody has this-- some clearer definition of hey-- we're competitive. We can attract better students. We can attract good faculty. We can build for the future with an endowment that's competitive with other good institutions. We'll ever catch up with Grinnell College's endowment, and we'll never catch up with the elan that they've had. But we'll have our own elan, our own charisma. And our own clientele.

FB: [00:45:11] And that's something that I take great pride in because it was a collective effort of lots of people. The program-- well, you were in on a lot of it. That redesign of the business program, you were in charge of that in the sense that Russell had to go through you in the governance process. We started the social-- social work program that's attracted students. Now the new political science-- we finally got another political science. We're finally beginning to show movement there.

FB: [00:45:49] You personally can take a great deal of pride, but what I feel good about is that-- that it happened and I guess by-- if I have a regret about a past, is that I've never been-- I've been so active of what's happening currently, I have not been very good, except for the Christiansens. But I haven't been very good with Wesselink and Les Williams and some of those people of, shall we say, continually kind of bringing them in and making them feel-- I mean, they come to the banquets, but I don't call them up and consult with them and I don't, you know-- Once they left, they left, and we went on. And I sometimes feel that they don't know if they really can share in this or not. We try to let them share. But-- and they did lay the platform, you know. Dean Wesselink held this damn thing together. Three deans at once and twice interim president. Les was interim president. I mean they held this ship together with faculty like you.

WC: [00:47:08] Timing is sometimes important. There are certain times that certain people can serve but they couldn't have served at other times.

FB: [00:47:19] Uh-hmm.

WC: [00:47:19] And I think that's true of the Olsons and the Wesselinks. I think there is no way that Wesselink-- Maybe I shouldn't put that on the tape-- could be dean today.

FB: [00:47:31] No. But maybe I wouldn't have been a good dean in those days.

WC: [00:47:36] Well it would have been very frustrating.

FB: [00:47:38] Yeah I wouldn't-- one of the questions they asked me at Doane-- and they asked when they checked me out-- They said, "Can FB: get along without having quite the resources he's had?" Well, the response was, from up here, "Well, he didn't always have those resources. He earned them, in essence, collectively." Maybe if I-- if I had to live without them forever, it might be pretty difficult. On the other hand, if Wesselink had had them, would he have known what to do with them?

WC: [00:48:11] Well, that's-- that's the question. [laughter] Well, of course, all of this has made us very particular and that's why we have-- partly why we have so much difficulty. We look at the credentials that are coming in-- coming in now.

FB: [00:48:31] True. We should be particular. I mean, I'd rather go without somebody for a year until you find the right person, than just go out like we used to and say, "Oh good! We can hire somebody because we found a person who will come to Storm Lake."

WC: [00:48:48] Yeah, I think so, too. I think that's the feeling of a committee, well, I-- Well, that's the recent batch of nominations that's come in, I've seen a couple that look-- look better to me. But is there anything-- well, really colorful, any incident that's really colorful that stuck out, [laughter] that you'd like to relate here? Or a colorful personality that came and went. [laughter]

FB: [00:49:25] I don't know. [laughter] I don't know. Besides Wayne Holland? [laughter] I don't know. Well, this isn't an answer to your question, really. I guess some of-- I think one of the most interesting people on this campus and colorful in his own way is John Naughton. And I talked him into taking women's basketball.

FB: [00:49:55] He said, "Oh, my God." He says, "I'll never live that down." [laughter] "Those guys will eat me alive down at Sportsman's [a local sporting goods store] and all the good ole' boys around here that I used to coach with." He says, "I can't do that." I said, "John, if you win, they'll be out there watching your games." And that-- denouement(?) this year with Jeannie Demers, three-time leading scorer of the nation, all-time women NCAA scorer in all categories. A 4.0 student, a nice young lady, with a coach who looks like he's from the 19th century. [laughter]

FB: [00:50:33] Here's old John Naughton, with these women, these girls, around, you know. And somehow they're playing exciting basketball, win, lose, or draw. His teams are exciting. They press. They run. They shoot. And he's stompin' up and down yellin' and bitchin' and complainin' about how he's got to coach these women and rar-rar-rar. And he loves every minute of it. And yet, he was so ill this season. He had a virus [unintelligible] but that the stress was so great, trying to get Jeannie those points, and trying to win ballgames at the same time, and he had only a couple seniors. He had three seniors, and the rest were freshmen and sophomores. Now, I felt really badly for him. You know, I respond to character, [chuckles] and the whole scene so-- I don't know if you feel that way or not.

WC: [00:51:35] Well, I do. But I think he's-- I like Naughton more than I like most people. He's got a great sense of humor, in spite of some of the sometimes racy, even racist at times, remarks that he makes. There's no racism in him.

FB: [00:51:54] Nope.

WC: [00:51:54] As Jimmy Green (sp), black student who played on the football team when Johnny caught, he said, "You don't say anything against Naughton."

FB: [00:52:03] Period.

WC: [00:52:03] Period. I mean, he really had great admiration for him. Ewalt, no. But Naughton, he had great admiration, and I've always thought a lot of Naughton. One time I recommended him, and I pointed out four, five ways he could become a better teacher because I felt he had the qualities to really be an outstanding teacher. The humor, you know, the satire, the irony, everything there if he just put it together.

FB: [00:52:41] I agree. And he probably hasn't quite ever done that-- teach more. But he coaching-wise he has. He is an outstanding coach. Oh, I don't know [unintelligible] colorful things. I think-- I guess I get more-- a great deal of pleasure out of the quality of some of the middle-range faculty that came in about twelve years-- eleven, twelve years ago. Lampe, Hutchins, Traylor, Tinsley, Schweller, [unintelligible] our colorful one. But, boy, can they teach! You want to get 'er going, and they just do and-- the Madsens and people like that. I think, you know, maybe they're colorful, maybe they're not but they certainly can teach, and that just gives me a thrill. Because the students should work that.

WC: [00:53:48] And when I came, I think we had four Ph.D.s on the faculty, and a lot of the people were bad problems--

FB: [00:54:00] Uh-hmm.

WC: [00:54:00] To say, to say the least. Uh, just a couple more things-- Fred. Do you think the liberal arts college can survive? I mean, you see all the changes that are taking place, the-- and the costs go up and up and up. It gets pretty prohibitive. With government sometimes wanting to come through less. You think that we're going to price ourselves out of a market? I mean, good liberal arts colleges? And beyond that, what do you see the purpose of a college like Buena Vista in the future, for Buena Vista College?

FB: [00:54:45] The best-- good schools will always survive. There is always a market for quality. [unintelligible] the Rolls-- Rolls Royce won't go out of business. There's always somebody who wants one. And always-- And that's why we have to be as good as we can be because they won't buy Westmar forever.

FB: [00:55:06] They won't buy those colleges--Tarkio. They're not going to keep paying premium prices for less than premium goods. So the Carletons and the Grinnells have proved that. Through thick or thin, they have their students, and I believe Buena Vista will have it the same way because of quality, not because of price. I mean, Gustavus just stays. They were 1400 when I got there. They're at 2300 now. St. Olaf has grown from, you know, from 2000 to 3400. Why? In this-- all the ups and downs of the '60s, '70,s and '80s, grow, grow, grow, grow, grow. Because they've got a good college.

FB: [00:55:57] Second thing: Buena Vista College has a-- there's a unique role to play in higher education, which I hope Doane can join the ranks that Buena Vista has already entered, which combines liberal education with high-tech understanding, a sense that we-- there's a carpenter and the tools. We identify ourselves with the carpenter, but we provide the appropriate tools for the student. What they are learning is not just to spin the dial, but the dial is there to spin, and it's the sort of dial that they're going to face out there. But that we're teaching that they are the carpenter. It's not the tool that's going to solve the world's problems, and it's not the tool that's going to make a good business decision or teach children in the classroom. It's the teacher, the businessman, the politician. They're the carpenter, and-- but we have to give them the high technology of this world.

FB: [00:56:59] You cannot teach them with a slate and then expect them to go out and run a computer. You have to give them enough hands-on experience and understanding of, not just the technology itself, but the principles of the technology so they know that it is a tool, a changing-- I mean, it's like teaching typing in high school when you and I went to school, and I never learned to type. I didn't bother to take typing because I'm a lousy typist because nobody said, "Fred, the world is made up of typewriters. I mean, if you want to get something done sit down and type." And that was a failure of my own, but it was also a failure of my teachers to say, "Fred, you gotta learn to type, for God's sakes." But not because the typewriter is gonna write your paper. It facilitates getting a nice, neat, and clean copy to whomever wants to read it. Now you say, "Well, the universities can do the same thing, Fred." Of course they can, except they do it en masse. I can't get to the computer because there's 300 kids standing in front of me. So it's a-- time I'm a junior, maybe I'm getting some computer time, which I probably have to pay extra for if I'm allotted so many minutes, and then after I've used up my time, if don't have my homework done, I have to actually pay for that service.

FB: [00:58:21] A small college can give me all that experience and a personal understanding who that young person is. So, you know your students, and they go to law school, you know who they are, and they know you are. And that's why the college can survive. But small, warm, and friendly is not enough, and high technology is not enough. I mean, we've got technical schools out there that have the technology. It's the combination of liberal education and high tech, in my view. And the understanding--who is the carpenter and what is the tool.

WC: [00:59:07] Is there anything that you'd like to say that I haven't asked, Fred? [laughter]

FB: [00:59:11] You know, the best thing about working here is that it's fun to get up and go and go in to work. To me, it's always been fun. I don't think-- I can't remember a single day that the work-- that I didn't want to cross that street. I can think of some things in my personal life, that all of us have, that are struggles, that you're worried about or-- possibly your wife or your kids or, you know, you're worried about what is happening in their lives. But that, you know, once you cross the street, you know, I never regretted coming over here, and that has been a sustaining joy. You know, it wasn't like, "Oh, shit I gotta go see [unintelligible], he's pissed. Oh, shit, here comes Cumberland, you know.

WC: [01:00:04] [Chuckle]

FB: [01:00:04] I think the day that starts happening to a person, they ought to quit.

WC: [01:00:10] You've enjoyed your relationship with people.

FB: [01:00:14] Oh, yes. They've-- they've made my-- my work. I mean, it just-- it is people business. A lot of it. Serving them and their serving the institution. I mean, they may think that I'm bossy. I don't know what people think about me, but I do know that I probably talked to more people about more things in a week and take more advice; I give some, but I take a lot from people telling-- well, we could do this, we could improve that. We can-- We can change this. And so, in a sense, you are a funnel for a brilliant set of ideas that you've got to make workable. And they're not all yours, and you don't try to take credit for them, but some credit rubs off, maybe, because you get it done and look at that mass communication shack over there. I don't [unintelligible] the equipment. I was advised on every piece that's in there, but I scrambled around government money and said, "Yes, go buy it." And yeah, that looks like a good place to set it up. And so, you know, that certainly makes it fun.

WC: [01:01:37] Well anything else?

FB: [01:01:41] Ah. Just remember-- remember me in the book.

WC: [01:01:46] [laughter] Well, I'll certainly do that because you play a key role in it. And I thank you very much for this interview. [Recorder stops]

FB: [01:01:55] [Recorder starts] A little addendum. Keith Briscoe has a facility for modesty, which people don't think of it as modesty. He let me be virtually an internal president. There were many, many decisions that I made in his name. That is, he came back to town and I said, "Well, while you were gone, we decided to do this, this, and this, or so-and-so came in and I took care of it," and he said, "Fine." There are a lot of presidents out there--great presidents--who would not have let go of some of those details because they were afraid that they couldn't trust the decision or they were afraid to trust the decisions of other people. And Keith has-- had the facility with me, at least, and I would say with Bob Siefer and, up to a point, with the other vice presidents, to let them do their work and not second-guess every damn thing they did. But particularly in the academic program. Some questions, yeah. But never serious second-guessing. "Brown, that was a bad move. Why in the hell did you do that?" Never called me on the carpet once in 14-- 13 years, say, "You dumb shit, if you do that one more time, I'll fire your ass." He never said anything negative about, I mean, negative being-- in the really strong sense.

FB: [01:03:40] I mean, he might say, "Fred [unintelligible]" but I had a response because we had thought this through carefully, and I'm sure he didn't agree with everything. He didn't want to tenure Ron McClay, and he was right. Probably shouldn't have. It was a bad bet. On the other hand, he was as enthusiastic, as you and I were, about Michael Har-- Hervey. Bill Hervey. And we were all wrong.

WC: [01:04:14] Well, we weren't wrong about his teaching. [laughter]

FB: [01:04:18] Not about his teaching. But I think that's a real-- something you ought to get in that book because it's a-- it-- somehow, it-- you know, it maybe it gives me some credit that I could do that with [unintelligible] but it gives him some credit and the board of trustees. One thing I didn't say, and I'm glad you turned that back on. No provost could have the support I've had-- better support than I've had from Edgar Mack. Somewhere you've got to find room in there for Edgar Mack.

FB: [01:04:49] It's not what Edgar does so much as what he personifies I don't know of a man that I would trust more, not so much because he's so-- has the most brilliance or the best decision-making skills, but he has faith. He had faith in me when I came to interview the first time. He played square with me when Halverson resigned, and I could have been really up a creek with a new president and I had Dick Eilers [unintelligible], too.

FB: [01:05:28] But probably I am closer in sync to Edgar. But Edgar, I trust, and this institution would be a far different place if you had a chairman of the board that was not like Edgar. And he has great understanding of the fact of these roles. When he makes those little speeches, he's not just saying what he's supposed to say. He believes that-- he really believes it.

WC: [01:06:09] I think he was a good learner because I can remember th-- when he came on the board and a committee meeting I was on that he was on. He was a little bewildered at the outset, and then he seemed really to study and and to learn.

FB: [01:06:24] And he learned his lesson well and he personifies the grace that is the new Buena Vista, that we do have style and we do have grace. We do things nicely and [unintelligible]. We give a better dinner than most colleges. We entertain guests better. We aren't chintzy with the-- the little extras, you know. Keith says when we have a guest come in-- haul a fruit basket out there waiting for them in the motel and a nice little bottle of wine, you know. If, you know, people, you know if they like wine or, you know, something like that. And-- and Edgar has nothing do with that except Edgar is the kind of person who understands and appreciates those type of things. And so when he gets up, people are always kind of glad to hear those few words from Edgar. Don't you think?

WC: [01:07:20] Yes. I have always liked him a lot. Always, always very friendly to me, and I actually I want to interview him, too. I feel that's an absolute necessity because the Mack family goes back so far. I know a lot more about these people than when I did it the first time [laughter], which was kind of from scratch. I was just a young guy without a whole lot of experience.

FB: [01:07:45] Well, and yeah, you-- but I somehow-- that grace was the only word that keeps coming back to me and Lois [Mack's wife]. The other thing that I hope gets in there and, you know, you're not going to write pages. I have never-- Carmen Briscoe personifies the total first lady. Most president's wives, and Janet will not be anything like Carmen, but she will be a very gracious hostess and we will do nice things [unintelligible].

FB: [01:08:20] But Carmen is-- that she's an army wife, OK? Her dad was a general. Her mother taught her whatever station your husband is at, that's the role you play. When he got to be president, she became a president's wife. She shows a total commitment into helping Keith be a successful president. If that means keeping guests at the house, getting up in the morning and fixing breakfast for them, which she really would prefer not to. If it means choosing the right selections for dinner, the right napkins, whatever--

FB: [01:09:00] You know those touches that she is-- and I'm sure Keith has been discouraged or frustrated. She is right there, as all our wives are. But I mean she's been a true first lady of this institution, and it's probably her style that she was the one that worked hardest for those interior decorators from New York. Many of those colors chosen were between the decorator and Carmen. And Keith but Carmen was very-- she flew out there many times to look at fabrics to-- to make choices on color and her name is not going to be on anything around here, but she is, you know, I think a lot of Carmen Briscoe.

WC: [01:09:53] Well, a different type of person might have demanded [laughter] their name be on--

FB: [01:09:57] And one other thing, Bill, and this can go on tape because I'm not afraid to say it on tape. Keith Briscoe ought to have his name on something around here. You know we-- we're getting everybody else on, you know, people who gave money and people who, you know, this and that. I mean, Franklin Pierce never gave us a damn dime, and he got a dorm named after him.

WC: [01:10:32] I know. [laughter]

FB: [01:10:32] You know? But I'm sure he was-- it was important to have him on the board and so on. But I'm just saying compared to his counterpart, Z.Z. White, who did give us money. Pierce was stingy. [sotto voce] Eilers was stingy. [/sotto voce] But they got their name all over the place.

FB: [01:10:57] Keith Briscoe [should] have some place-- there ought to be some-- big thing. I don't know where it is-- because, you know, we kind of used up everything. If nothing else in that book, you know, for all peculiar things about Keith Briscoe. He's-- It's kind of like saying, OK, maybe Eisenhower wasn't the greatest general but he was THE general when we took Europe back. So, whether Patton was better or MacArthur was better, Eisenhower was the general. Well, Briscoe was the general. You could say that Brown did it or the faculty did it or Siebens did it. But he [Briscoe] was the general.

WC: [01:11:42] Well, sometimes in a decathlon where there are 20 different contests, the winner might place third in most of those things and maybe first in one things, but the combined score is better. As for the way I look at Eisenhower. . .

FB: [01:12:02] That's right. He wasn't the best general, but he was the best over the long haul for everything, wasn't he?

WC: [01:12:08] Right.

FB: [01:12:10] Patton would have been in Moscow by now. [laughter] On the other hand the best-- and then we can stop--

WC: [01:12:19] [laughter] OK.

FB: [01:12:19] On the other hand MacArthur was best for East Asia. [Cumberland interjects, but it is unintelligible] He understood that he was the new shogun.

WC: [01:12:30] I always say, thank God he was ruling Japan and not the United States.

FB: [01:12:35] Yes.

WC: [01:12:36] [laughter]

FB: [01:12:36] He was a great ruler for Japan, and he'd have been lousy for us. But he was a great shogun. They wrote him a constitution that he personally put his pen to paper. He and his staff wrote that constitution.

WC: [01:12:52] Maybe we should blame him for our-- the trouble. [laughter]

FB: [01:12:54] That's right. You put him back on the [laughter] [unintelligible] just stop. He and General Marshall, George Marshall, with his Marshall Plan for Europe. Good God [laughter] [unintelligible] We helped them both. Okay.

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